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Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Jul 10th, 2015 at 6:18pm
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Someone recommended that I neck turn my .38-55 brass for concentricity.  I have never heard of turning straight walled cases..the .38-55 case is tapered, unless the turning was done on a lathe with taper attatchment or compound set to proper angle, you would have a straight portion and a step where cutter stopped..I can't see where this would help unless chamber was also reamed this way.  I have inside neck reamed .38-55 case when loading groove sized+.001 bullets in order to be able to chamber in an original High Wall.  My bore slugs .375" & a .377 pin gage is a snug fit in fired brass.  I figure a .376 bullet should be a good fit.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #1 - Jul 10th, 2015 at 6:44pm
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I had a similar problem using 405 win brass for 40/72.
the brass thickness was tapered, and chambering a round was difficult with bullets seated deep in the case.
I used an rcbs neck turner, as different pilots are available for it.
this was combined with a buffalo arms expander which gave the necessary fit on the turner pilot.
cases were sized after annealing to be sure that the expander made a parallel internal neck for the required distance.
this parallel neck slides onto the pilot of the turner and you simply turn off the required material.
I fireformed with black powder, and due to low pressure it took a few shots before the step disappeared. you can still see a line where the step was. annealed brass is important here.
in one way a long reamer of bullet diameter run into a fired case would be easier, but there is a chance that it could go crooked or a little off centre.
neck turning makes the hole concentric and when fireformed the case will hold the bullet in a straight line with the chamber neck.
when turning you will often see more coming off one side than the other.
how far down the neck to turn must allow for the bullet plus a wad plus a little bit.
doing the bare minimum will allow finger seating to perfection, a great time saver when reloading.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #2 - Jul 10th, 2015 at 10:47pm
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Inside neck reaming will adjust the diameter to match the reamer DIAMETER.  Wall thickness is reduced as material is removed, but there is no control as to how uniform the thickness is that remains.

Outside neck reaming, usually done using a close fitting mandrel is to skim off a LITTLE to make the wall thickness uniform.  This has the effect of making the inside surface (a cylinder) coaxial with the outside surface (also a cylinder).

I recently acquired an H&R Buffalo Classic in 38-55 - it had the classic symptom of too tight a chamber for cast bullets.  A quick few turns with a .375Win chambering reamer took off a few thousandths and cast bullet cartridges now chamber well.
  

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #3 - Jul 12th, 2015 at 4:54am
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cat whisperer,
it is interesting to sometimes see brass only come off one side of the neck when outside neckturning.
this is really straightening up a bad situation.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #4 - Jul 12th, 2015 at 6:52am
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bruce moulds wrote on Jul 12th, 2015 at 4:54am:
cat whisperer,
it is interesting to sometimes see brass only come off one side of the neck when outside neckturning.
this is really straightening up a bad situation.
keep safe,
bruce.


A friend taught me to take off just the minimum amount (6ppc) to maintain the close clearances between the neck and the chamber.

A tubing micrometer can be used to check uniformity of neck thickness.

  

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #5 - Jul 12th, 2015 at 9:17am
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There are only two ways to work brass so that it is even all the way around. The first and easiest is to neck turn the case against a mandrill. You only have to turn it to a few thousandths longer than your seating depth. The second way is truly a huge P.I.A. but for long straight cases will appear better. First you will need the same reamer that chambered the rifle and a piece of ¾” to 1” steel. Drill and ream the steel with the chamber reamer. Now drill and tap a hole just off the rim diameter and put the screw with a washer attached in the tapped hole. Now go to the range and fire form your brass. Bring home the fired brass place the first piece in the steel jig you made and tighten the screw and washer against the rim. Now put it in your lathe in a 4-jaw chuck and indicate in the outside of the case till true. Now using a boring bar bore the case to the correct dimension. Warning this is a huge P.I.A. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #6 - Jul 12th, 2015 at 7:45pm
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40 rod,
you nailed that one. turning is easier, and possibly has less potential for tears.
cat whisperer,
clearance between neck and chamber is a thing to experiment with.
br guys used to use fitted cases, where a fired case had enough neck tension to seat a bullet without sizing.
this seems to have gone by the board, due to the potential for all sorts of things to go wrong.
0.002 clearance (0.001 per side) is considered minimum for consistent reliability.
fclass guys tend to run 0.004 clearance as this will generally produce better vert at longer ranges.
lead bullets introduce another variable. they can bump up.
while this is possibly not an issue with smokeless, as it burns progressively, it certainly is with  black powder.
there is no point in sizing a bullet to groove diameter or + 0.001 with black powder, because when you light the fire it will bump up to the size of the internal obturated case before it has moved 0.025".
best here is to cast bullets to be an interference fit in a fired case for best accuracy.
turning too much off your brass will mean that the bullet needs to be even bigger.
thin brass in an oversize chamber diameter will cause big bullets to be sized down in the transition/leade/throat, producing cupped bases.
custom chambering reamers are a help here.
breech seating basically eliminates all these issues.
when turning straight cases for black powder, do not forget to allow enough for the wad as well as the bullet. even allow a little more for where the step is in the brass, which goes to the inside of the case on fireforming.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #7 - Jul 16th, 2015 at 4:42pm
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When the neck of a .38-55 case is expanded and a bullet is seated the neck is not tapered - it is straight.

Turning the neck does not do much for you unless you have a close fitted chamber neck.

Unfortunately the SAAMI .38-55 chamber can actually be tapered at the neck. It can also be smaller than a loaded cartridge when a groove diameter bullet is seated in the case.
In this case (no pun intended) you can turn the case straight enough to permit it to chamber.
You can also force it on a tapered mandrel for turning so the result is a tapered case after the case is sized and a bullet is seated. 

I have a case neck turner made by Ferris Pendell with a 1/2" wide cutter. It is possible to turn this cutter slightly and have it form turn a taper. I have tried this on a few cases for clearance but using the thinner Starline brass is much more sensible.

I think more neck massaging for the 38-55 is done to get oversize necks to chamber than for any possible accuracy gain. 

Rather than making assumptions about the neck diameter of your chamber you should measure it.

Expand a fired case .020 or .030 over size with a tapered punch. All you need is a trumpet shape on the end of the case. Tap it into your chamber until the trumpet is squeezed down by the chamber neck. Then extract and measure the edge of the trumpet where it was squeezed down by the chamber.

« Last Edit: Jul 16th, 2015 at 4:48pm by ireload2 »  
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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #8 - Jul 16th, 2015 at 5:41pm
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Some might find this interesting...

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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #9 - Jul 17th, 2015 at 10:37am
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That's an interesting article.  My .38-55 reamer is based on the reamer he mentions.  I made a couple of changes.  I think that his reamer should be tighter at the case mouth as it's pretty sloppy with the thin Starline brass.   

I'd be happiest if Starline made full length .38-55 brass with a standard brass thickness.  I've had cases fail after only a few loadings when breech seating with black in my CPA.

Chris.
  
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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #10 - Jul 18th, 2015 at 12:24am
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Many shooters bought the H&R Target Rifle in 38-55 and opened the chamber to work with .380 bullets. 
I have never heard a single person complain that the larger chamber caused any problems.

You would think that SAAMI would update the drawing to modern standards since it is still possible to build a 38-55 with a minimum chamber that will not accept maximum ammo even though both ammo and chambers meet the SAAMI standards.
  
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Re: Neck Turning Straight-Walled cases?
Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 1:57am
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ireload2 wrote on Jul 18th, 2015 at 12:24am:
Many shooters bought the H&R Target Rifle in 38-55 and opened the chamber to work with .380 bullets. 
I have never heard a single person complain that the larger chamber caused any problems.

....


Yup.  .375Win reamer did it just right - barely touched it, also had 1degree throat.
  

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