George Babits wrote on Jul 12^th, 2015 at 5:36pm:


George,
    Take a look at Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook where Lyman lists loads for the cartridges that never had SAAMI pressure values recorded.  Lyman tested those cartridges with black and then worked up loads with a sensible selection of smokeless powders.    They had no problem finding powders that gave appropriate pressure and pressure curves.      Simply using their loads really is safe, but anyone who wishes to add an additional measure of safety can easily keep below the velocities published and breathe even easier.  Velocity is an excellent indicator of pressure for anyone who pays attention to other things as well.   The thing to pay attention to in this instance is the choice of powders.   Easily done.    

I shot a muzzle loading 405 built on an original Hi-Wall action stocked in the design of the Win Laudensauk with a Darr barrel in serious benchrest competition for over a year. I breach seated it using a charge of 22grs. of H-108 with no over the powder wad and that rifle would shoot 3/8 five shot groups at 100yds. pretty consistently. It also shot extremely well at 200yds with the same load with consistency. It would go out for weekly practice sessions as well and I put allot of bullets down the bore and never once did I feel it to be unsafe. I also shoot it a substantial amount during load development in preparing it for serious bench competition. The only reason I quite shooting it was the bruise left from the hook butt plate would't have time to heal before the next weekly outing and it would become quite uncomfortable in very short order. It was one of the nicest Schuetzen Rifles I have owned to date. Someone on this site might now own it?

Slide the picture left and right to see the entire rifle.

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Ah yes; beautiful rifle and a 405 which was designed for smokless powder.

George

Chris a #6 or #7 I don't recall which and the pictures really don't due the rifle justice it was an absolutely stunning rifle and full muzzle loading set. Every time I look at that picture I regret selling it but it was time to pass the enjoyment of owning it onto someone else.

Gunpowder or black powder; just a word game.  Black was all they had.

As for some of the smokless loadings, say for the 45-90, you need to consider the rifles they were used in, including twist rate and bullet weight.  From what I read people call the 2.4" case the 45-90 these days, but load a 500+ grain bullet in it for the fast twist demanded these days.  The original 45-90 used a light bullet and slow twist (1 in 32).  It was an "express" round to bett\er the performance of the 45-70.  So these days you may well be mixing apples and lemons when you talk about some cartridges like the 45-90.

George

George Babits wrote on Jul 13^th, 2015 at 12:42pm:

Winchester made their 45-90 WCF case available in different loadings. Some are...
using Black powder with Lead Bullets, Soft Point or Full Metal Patch:
     45-90-300 grain
     45-85-300 grain Hollow Point Express Bullet
     45-85-350 grain Solid Ball
     45-82-400 grain Solid Ball
using Smokeless powder with Soft Point or Full Metal Patch:
     45-90-300 grain
     45-90-300 grain High Velocity

Winchester also catalogs the Sharps 45 2 4/10" cartridge case loaded with 100 grains of Black power using a 500 grain ball, and that particular loading is shown as one variant of the 45-100 SHARPS SPECIAL.

George, I agree that we are mixing apples and oranges.

westerner wrote on Jul 13^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Yep.
And some may get the Darwin Award before they become skilled enough to safely have both.   

I'm on both sides and on the side of staying smart, not dumbing down. 

Should have said, 99.99 % of us are skilled enough to use both powders. Sometimes I even use both types in the same case!  There's a few out there that say one shouldn't do that either. 
Sticking to the ASSRA load rule, "Any safe load".


          Joe.