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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) low capacity cartridge cases (Read 14330 times)
argie1891
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low capacity cartridge cases
Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:28am
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I was just thinking that breach seating at the range all that is needed is one good case. why couldn't I make a 32-40 case on my lathe with say the same capacity as the 32-20 and used a much lower powder charge it might be possible to increase accuracy and case life. now I do know case life isn't a problem as they last almost forever. I keep reading about the benefits of smaller cases and lower powder charges. I am sure I could make a case, however I have no idea if I could use regular 360 brass or would need another alloy. this is something I would like to try. questions?? would I gain anything? what kind of brass to use?  question one can only be answered by trying it to see. I am hoping someone on the forum knows the answer to the type of brass alloy. 
Joe G
  

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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #1 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:20am
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Half hard 360 is fine. I used that, bronze and stainless steel.

I would have to say that I like bronze the best.

I used 1/4" back to the primer pocket and then, increased the depth of the neck, to get my case capacity.

Frank
  

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argie1891
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #2 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:25am
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thanks for your information. what kind of results have you had with the reduced capacity cases??  you are doing exactly what I was going to try 1/4 inch and larger at case mouth. I am not sure why it needs to be larger but it would push on the bullet bottom equally if it were. joe
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #3 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 8:42am
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I had RMC make me several "reduced capacity" cases over the years.  some are simply bottle necked or taped cases with a straight-walled powder chamber back to the flash-hole.   
however I also had him make me a batch of .220 Swift cases that have a .224 hole back to the flash hole for a small primer.   Sort of a 22 hornet extra long (or whatever that real long 22 centerfire Stevens cartridge was called) for cast bullet shooting in my Ruger #1 in .22 swift.
  

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RoyB
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #4 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 10:27am
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This interests me as I'm shooting a 38-55 with reduced loads and this leaves lots of air space between the smokless powder load and the base of the bullet.

Can someone post a quick drawing of what you are talking about before I head out to the lathe and make something and hurt myself..... Wink
  

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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #5 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:36pm
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argie1891 wrote on Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:25am:
thanks for your information. what kind of results have you had with the reduced capacity cases??  you are doing exactly what I was going to try 1/4 inch and larger at case mouth. I am not sure why it needs to be larger but it would push on the bullet bottom equally if it were. joe


The reason that it has to be a normal neck diameter on the ID is, it won't seal the chamber if it isn't.

Regarding accuracy, it was hard to tell a difference and if you have a very accurate rifle, to begin with, it will take many comparison groups to tell if there is a edge and you can only do that AFTER you find a good load for the machined case. It's not like you can make a case, then know if it works, right a way. Lots of range time involved!

It is fun to do if, you like experimenting. Back in the 80's and '90's I loved doing it and still do but, I don't have the drive that I used to.

A picture of my SS 30/40 case:
  

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 12:59pm
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Its easier to just have RMC make you a batch of cases. What you are talking about doing is what they have been doing for several years. Design what you want and they will make it. I have tried their reduced capacity 32-40 cases for both SR and LR primers and I did not notice any increase in accuracy but just the opposite. Also if the cases are not an extremely close fit the gas blow by will collapse the mouths on the first firing / case ruined and primer pockets did not last very long. These cases do not exspand and contract like a factory case and are quite brittle. Depending on the extent of the reduced capacity a wad over the powder might be required to get the case in the chamber without spilling powder. 

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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:19pm
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To begin with, I had a conversation regarding reduced capacity cases with a member on this forum. It was about 3 years ago, as I remember.

He contacted RMC and was told that they would not make such a case.

Blow by will colapse any case that doesn't have a close fitting neck and that may be the area that should get the most attention. For brass or bronze, the neck shouldn't be thicker than .015. The neck on my pictured SS case is .015 and after years of use (look cloe and you can see it), it did colapse. I should have made it .007 - .010. I've never had any trouble with any other case. I've made thicker walled and reduced cases in 30/40, 32/40, 308 Win and 270 Win.

Regarding chamber fit (other than neck) the only thing that needs to be close is the case diameter at the the case head. That should be what ever SAAMI specs are for the case at the .200 gage line, forward of the rear of the case. The reast of the case will fire form to the chamber, just like any other case will (excepting a SS one).

Regarding accuracy, this is a five shot group at 100 yds, using my bronze 30/40 case. I'll let it speak for itself.

Frank
  

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:32pm
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This brings up an interesting question about the influence of the internal shape of the case on burn consistency. Any confined combustion process can be tuned by changing the shape of the confined space. A complication is the random distribution of powder granules, but making the chamber the right size for a consistent fill should help with a consistent burn. Then the issue arises as to the actual dynamics of burning once ignition starts the pressure rise and combustion progression in the confined space. I suspect that there is a lot going on that we don't necessarily know about of understand about the combustion cycle of internal ballistics, but I would think that the shape of the chamber might influence how the burn progresses and hence how the bullet progresses up the barrel, which is now vibrating and distorting as a result of the pressure changes. It may be enough to have consistency in the burn cycle, but there might be internal chamber shapes that promote an even consistent burn, while others promote spikes in pressure from shock waves concentrating or reflecting in the chamber and barrel area. How to find out? I don't know, assuming that chamber shape variations could be close to infinite. Taper, base shape, internal angles, etc., might all influence burn dynamics. So many variables, so little time...
  
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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #9 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 1:58pm
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Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. has been making reduced capacity cases / everlasting since day one and it was there per-say bread and butter when owned by Dave Casey. If the new owners no longer make them its news to me. I believe they are still shown on their web site and I have owned several and still do in 25-21 Stevens. One group does not tell the true tale I have shot several in the 3', 2's and a few in the 1's with standard WW Brass at a 100yds. including the new 5-5Shot 100yd. Group Average at .3882. The reduced capacity cases simply would not get me there lacking the day in and day out consistency or I would I have been using them for the last 15 years of my competitive shooting but your mileage may vary. Currently I don't of anyone who has not tried them and then continued to do so in my real of competitive shooters. The exception being those cases that are dang near impossible to find.

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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #10 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:29pm
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RMC has always made Everlasting type cases and they do reduce capacity, some what. 

The shooter that I was refering to asked about reduced capacity, relating to a extended solid case head. In other words, a short powder chamber. I don't believe the man was l lying when he told me they wouldn't do it for him.

You could call and confirm it one way or the other. Doesn't matter to me, as I make my own when needed.

John,
Some people just like experimenting, I would never discourage that. It's both fun and you can learn from it, whether good or bad, right? What can you learn by doing the same thing over and over for 150 years?

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« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2015 at 1:22am by frnkeore »  

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #11 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:33pm
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There is not much that has not been tried including frontal ignition. A small tube running through the center of the case to the front of the powder column. Some case designs are inherently accurate such as the 38-55, 32-40, 28-30 and a prime example the 6PPC. The point being when you alter a cases original and proven accuracy design chances are you will be taking away from it and not improving it. The original designers have already jumped through the hoop of variations and then settled on the best design. When I speak of the above mentioned cases with the exception of the 6PP/@'C the proven inheriant accuracy I speak of is while using reduced charges and either breach seated or muzzle loaded lead and tin bullets. The extremely competitive sport of Schuetzen shooting of which the 32-40 has won more matches than all of the others combined since its introduction to the sport.

JLouis
  

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #12 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:34pm
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for reguced capacity why not just make the interior base_ web longer?  that would reduce the length of the powder column.   art
  
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #13 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:40pm
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Seems to me that SchutzenDaves research on the results of 1240+ scores, show the odds tipped (by quite a bit) in favor of the smaller cases but, that's just factual.

Frank
  

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #14 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 2:50pm
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John, has anybody you know tried front ignition with the paltry powder loads we use? I don't recall any that I've read of that weren't for big-time cartridges. What happened if you have heard of any in reduced load shooting? You know, me; always curious.
  
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