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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) low capacity cartridge cases (Read 14340 times)
JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #15 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:14pm
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Experimenting is indeed extremely fun and a rewarding learning experiance, I dedicated most of my competitive shooting success to it. In so doing I did not venture into the realm of doing something that might cause harm to me, my equipment or someone sitting next to me. There have been rifles blown up caused by detonation taking place in lieu of a controlled burn rate and possibly the cause of the Quigely accident. At what point does reducing the case capacity while using fast burning pistol powders possibly lead one and those around him into this dangerous realm? Possibly the reason RMC did not want to produce your friends design? I am sure safety concerns must have come into play for them not to accept his money to help keep their doors open. I guess the only way to really find out is to have someone blow up their rifle and then report back with their loss of equipment and possible bodily harm. I lathe turn and bore all of my seater cases out of steel to fit my chamber perfectly to assist in seating the bullet central to the bore but in no way would I ever think of making one to be used in the manner discussed in this topic. 

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #16 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:21pm
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Yes frontal ignition has been tried, it was an article published in the single shot exchange, fouling shot or the journal I don't remember it was several years ago and there was no improvement found in doing so.

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #17 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:07pm
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Frank factual based on based Daves report I think not. Those competitiors on that list could have easily accomplished the same results with the use of an inheritenty accurate case of original design. Factual there is no one left in our group of competitors still using the cases you speak so highly of. My personnel competitive accomplishments with the 32-40 have been more than exceptional just not one to brag about them and if 50 shot matches had been offered in the past there would have been several more names included on that list and possibly mine. You can't base the least contested match accross the nation to provide any type of so called factual results. I don't know of any clubs that regulary hold a 50 shot bench match and one can't get his or her name on that list without it being offered. In the past fifteen years of competitive shooting at our club I don't recall it ever being offered with the exception of this year we did have one 50 shot event and I believe possibly our first? 

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Dales
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #18 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:35pm
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Along these same lines what about using a small case such as the 32 long or 32 H&R mag (30 cal. barrel)
that would just hold the desired powder charge with a foam or paper wad and run the throating reamer in deep enough to give the same capacity as say the 32-35 case . No chance of a double charge . 
Just wondering.
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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #19 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:47pm
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John,
I'm not going to argue with you any more and won't responce to any more post directed to me on your part, in this thread.

The 50 shot match is available to all shooters on the West Coast. As you state, you shot it this last April. It's available EVERY year at Raton, also. That's where Rick got on the list with his 32/40. It's open to all shooters and can be shot multiple times during the year. I shoot it at Spokane. There are other ranges on the West Coast and we can still cross state borders to get to them (at least for now).

The shooters that use the smaller cases, are NOT forced to use them and attain high scores in spite of it. Most all that I know of use them because they shot reliable, higher scores, using them.

The smallest group, ever recorded was Jan's ~.56, 10 shot group, shot with a 32/20 case. And yes, I know the case causes problems but, not the case capacity.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and mine is that smaller cases (smaller case capacity) is as accurate or more accurate than cases that can be double charged and cause harm to others (a proven concept, not speculation).

Frank

« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2015 at 5:06pm by frnkeore »  

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #20 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 5:50pm
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Well Frank you just indeed did respond and everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinion including myself. Its healthy for the group and can be one of the best learning tools we have. If you think I am perssonely picking on you that is trully not the case. I'am simply disagreeing with the 50 shot match format proving anything factual. Raton and Tommy's matches are not representitive of what the majority of the Schuetzen competitiors typicaly shoot at their home clubs matches with some being shot monthly not once yearly as offered by Tommy and possibly Raton. I can't afford to attend either so I would not know the extent of their formats. In order to have a fair comparison one should use the most contested shooting formats being offered to all and not the least contested formats offered to a hand full of others. I have nothing against the small capacity cases they seem to work for some but maybe not all.and I jumped on that band wagon with the 32Miller Short., the 33RKS Schuetzen and the 28 Darr with nothing less than the highest hopes
of acheiving the ultimate in accuracy unfortunatly it didn't work for me and I trully wish it would have. I might be totally of base but for the sake of new shooters getting into this sport I can't and won't recommend what has not worked for me and the others who have since returned to the 32-40 plain and simple hard earned honesty brought about by personel experience from us all.

A trip to the ASSRA records would be an unbiased indicator should the shooters data also be included?

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #21 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 4:16am
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So far my limited experience shooting my cpa 32-40 has been very hit and miss. I have had the rifle just over a year and the first couple trips to the range were buggered up because I had a problem getting used to the set trigger. so far my best groups have been fired without a wad just loading at the range. I have tried several different types of wad material and none have been consistent. I do have 20 cases charged with wads ready to go to the range but 100 degree temperature keeps me in the house. In the discussion of cartridges small or large cap. I like the old timers. I have a 38-55 lever action and now a cpa in 32-40. there is something about these old timers that I just don't feel with the new cartridges. and yes I don't ride a horse and I don't use candles to light my way. I like modern items. it just seems to feel better to use a classic cartridge in a  classic rifle.
  

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #22 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 9:06am
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I did not know there was a shift by shooters going back to 32-40 other then to meet traditional requirements? I think the 32-20 .321 version is just an attempt to mimic the miller short and gives a semi traditional case/ bullet and is the only reason to go to it. Jmo
  
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frnkeore
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #23 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:16pm
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argie1891 wrote on Jun 28th, 2015 at 4:16am:
So far my limited experience shooting my cpa 32-40 has been very hit and miss. I have had the rifle just over a year and the first couple trips to the range were buggered up because I had a problem getting used to the set trigger. so far my best groups have been fired without a wad just loading at the range. I have tried several different types of wad material and none have been consistent. I do have 20 cases charged with wads ready to go to the range but 100 degree temperature keeps me in the house. In the discussion of cartridges small or large cap. I like the old timers. I have a 38-55 lever action and now a cpa in 32-40. there is something about these old timers that I just don't feel with the new cartridges. and yes I don't ride a horse and I don't use candles to light my way. I like modern items. it just seems to feel better to use a classic cartridge in a  classic rifle. 


I have similar feeling about cartridges for SS rifles. My ONLY non traditional caliber has been my 33 ELCO but, it was something that I had to try and I guess it would fit "traditional" as well as the .321 barreled 32/20's. I could have called it a 33 Wesson but, as with the CPA 32/20, there is no history of it. I can see people going +/- .005 on groove diameter but .013 is just TO much to call it "Traditional".

The 30/30 Wesson is one that I also, wanted to do for a very, very long time, because of it's smaller case capacity. I may also build a 32/20 at some time, too but, NOT a .321 version. 32/20 cases, modified from 357 mag should be good for that.

In my opinion, there are NO inherently accurate cartridges or calibers (at least 25 cal and above), there are just cartridges that haven't been developed. It's a steeper hill to climb when you don't have 130 years of loading data to draw on but, that doesn't mean that the reward at the top of that hill is any less valuable. 

The traditional class is well worth "shooting" for but, most people don't think about anything that isn't based on the 32/40 case. Back in the 80's and 90's, I did very well with my 32/35 Stevens (.308 bbl, Hoch action), I won my share of matches with it, here in the N/W. I built a second rifle for a friend on a original 44 1/2 and it was a winner right out of the box.

Life to boring to be saddled with one cartridge. There are lots of other ones and don't forget the other BP cartridges, too.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2015 at 1:31am by frnkeore »  

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #24 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 3:04pm
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Brice I feel the need to provide an example of what I feel is an inherently accurate cartrige design. We picked up a new shooter last year Terry Harper. He came down to watch a match and took an immediate interest went home and ordered a new Model 52 CPA. When asked what he should have it chambered for myself and Jerry Hartwig recommended he go with the 33-47 based on our personnel experiances. He shot his first match with us on 9-13-2014. His first time shooting his new rifle at our range was the day before the match in a practice session with Jerry myself and Bruce Kirby. Right out of the gate he shot a 250 his second target if I remember right and follwed up with another 250 in the match. To date he has only failed to place in the top three only twice and in his first ISSA Regional he placed 3rd. All the above in Any Sight CF 200yd. Bench Matches. He also has done extremely well in the Iron Sight bench matches as well. A review of of out clubs match scores is worth reviewing, his scores have been consistently high with only a few exceptions. When Jerry Hartwig built his 33-47 the first time he shot it was in a practice seesion prior to thr match and he too shot a 250 his first and then went one with the same success as Terry from there. Unfortunatly I had to sell mine during a hard time in my life as it was worth the most money. Prior too I shot a 250 in each of four consecutive weekly practice sessions. With results like the above and right out of the both Jerry and Terry I trully do feel that some of the old original cartrige designs are indeed superior to the new reduced capacity cases and I have proven it to myself that they are by far more user friendly. I feel the 33-47 is one up on the 32-40 for day in and day out consistency and I have also proven that to myself as I believe Jerry H has done so also. The return to 32-40 out my way is not due to meeting any traditional rules but for its extremely consistent performance and ease of use. All though I am more partial to the 33-47 all of my perssonel shooting accomishments have been with the 32-40.
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #25 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 6:23pm
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I would agree the 33-47 is a good choice, and maybe better then the 32-40 thanks to the heavier bullet. I believe that is what Jim Luke shoot and did extremely well with. Seems like there is a move to it by some traditional shooters.
  
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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #26 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 7:18pm
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I think it more of a move to be competitive rather than traditional but it would be nice to see more traditional rifles on the line. Thank you for your response I always value your thoughts as well as those from others.

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #27 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 9:18pm
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the un answered question it   would he have done as well with the 32-40?? I don't know of a way to gauge the results of one against the other. some shooters just seem to shoot anything they pick up extremely well. joe
  

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JLouis
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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #28 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:13pm
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Joe I don't know? 
It took me two years to come in second to last place that being my first goal and when I first started out I was pretty much flying blind. When Terry started out we all did our best to get him off to a good start and no knowledge was with held. My perssonel unfounded opinion is I don't believe he could have gotten off to the same successful start with the 32-40 but it would have been extremely close.

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Re: low capacity cartridge cases
Reply #29 - Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:29pm
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I feel Very Fortunate to have Crossed paths when I did with Barry Darr, Jerry Hartwig, and John Lewis .....and of course Many Others Not Mentioned Here!

Thanks, Terry
  

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