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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron (Read 14761 times)
ssdave
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #15 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 6:43pm
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John,

I'd be a lot more worried about what pressure the load produces than what velocity.  Velocity doesn't blow apart weak actions, pressure does.  Equal velocity loads can have a range of 3 or 4 times the pressure from lowest to highest.   

Being that the ballard was originally intended for blackpowder cartridges, I'd hold the pressure down below those pressures, regardless of the resulting velocity.  In using smokeless, I'd use the slowest burning powder that I could get to reliably light and burn, that will produce a velocity similar to blackpowder velocities.  That should result in the lowest pressures.  Unique is really quite a fast burning powder, and can produce fairly high pressures.

As Val said, Ballard dropped the 44-40 chambering as it was considered excessive for the ballard cast action.  I'd hold my loads down below SAAMI max by a ways knowing that information.

dave
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #16 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:01am
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flyer ... stick with what Vall posts.  He is the old professor and I'm just a wet behind the ears student burying myself in the reference books to learn and try to get a passing grade  Wink

A cartridge collector of renown is John Kort, 44WCF, who doesn't post much here.  John not only collects rounds, he dissects them for inside the cases identification and then shoot them.  John is a true historian because he then prepares reloads - shoots them to match original specifications and then posts the targets
Read this thread from John, My 44-40 Black Powder Journey ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
It's a shame though, he is not into the calibers for Stevens & Ballards


I don't believe I could ever come close to John Kort's knowledge of old cartridges and loads! His knowledge of them is greater than anyone I've ever seen!
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #17 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:04am
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Dave is spot on! Velocity would not be much of a factor for loading in a weaker action, and pressure, or pressure rise would be my main concern. I do use Unique in my old Ballard rifles, but moderate loads that still don't reach max pressures.
  

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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #18 - Jun 23rd, 2015 at 11:31am
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I don't believe I could ever come close to John Kort's knowledge of old cartridges and loads! His knowledge of them is greater than anyone I've ever seen!
And to have John as a long time close friend and shooting buddy cannot be put in words.

It was John who also got me started reloading primed empty cases with black powder - "Stepping Back into Time"!  After us loading many powders for accuracy and velocity, one night at Ridgway in the pistol range, we spent the whole night doing a comparison of the many powders for accuracy & determined that Swiss Null-B was the only powder to use.  I keep one of my targets to prove such
  
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John Boy
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44WCF Loading Data-Ballard Cast
Reply #19 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 3:46pm
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44WCF Chronograph Reloads Test
Jun 24th - My 48th Wedding Anniversary!  Smiley
82 degrees - 41% RH
220gr Bullet - No patching

6.5gr Unique
Avg Velocity - 1017 fps
STDev - 16.5 fps

7.5gr Unique 
Avg Velocity -  1125 fps
STDev - 9.7 fps

5.2gr TiteGroup
Avg Velocity - 975 fps
STDev - 22.9 fps

5.2gr ETR7 (comparable TiteGroup loading data)
Avg Velocity - 820 fps
STDev - 8.6 fps

* Primers showed no signs of high pressure for any charge
* No blow backs
All charges except the ETR7 had a 'cracking' sound on ignition

No opinions yet about the 'best' load because I only shot at 50yds.  But I liked the lower ignition sound of the ETR7.  Here's the link to the powder ... 
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) It is Spanish Maxum CBS1 powder

« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:02pm by »  
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BP
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #20 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 4:49pm
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...  The black powder 44-40 was loaded with a 200gr bullet - 39gr FFFg @ 1180 fps ... both less than the velocity of the Extra Long

John Boy,

What is your source for the "39gr FFFg" powder charge used in the 44 WCF?

  

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John Boy
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #21 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 5:18pm
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What is your source for the "39gr FFFg" powder charge used in the 44 WCF?

Goex Load Chart ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

These loading data's were not developed by Hodgdon for Goex powders!  The source for all was done by Curtis's & Harvey's.  Hodgdon sold C&H BP in the 1970's and C&H provided them with the data

This link is the only composite loading data for BP that exists anywhere.  Download a copy onto your computer in case Hodgdon ever decides to delete the link!
  
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uscra112
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #22 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 5:46pm
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It was John who also got me started reloading primed empty cases with black powder - "Stepping Back into Time"!  After us loading many powders for accuracy and velocity, one night at Ridgway in the pistol range, we spent the whole night doing a comparison of the many powders for accuracy & determined that Swiss Null-B was the only powder to use.  I keep one of my targets to prove such


What cartridges were you loading Null-B into?   
  

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BP
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2015 at 5:59pm
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John Boy,

Thanks. Here's some more info you might be interested in from the Jan 1913 WRA catalog.
For the 44 Win and the 44-40 Marlin cartridges, both were shown loaded with 40 grains powder, and the 
"Brands of Powder Used: American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge No. 4", Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.G.", E.I.DuPont de Nemours & Company's "DuPont Rifle F.F.G.", Lafin & Rand Powder Company's "Orange Rifle Extra F.F.G." "

Wasn't questioning the 39gr charge, but the FFFg granulation raised an eyebrow.
In my 38 Extra Long using a 210gr bullet and keeping the same powder charge, simply going from FFg to FFFg makes an interesting and noticable difference.

  

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thebear
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #24 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 3:05pm
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John Boy I can't get this to save, what is the secret. Thanks Fred
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #25 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:12pm
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John Boy I can't get this to save, what is the secret. Thanks Fred


Just open the site up Fred, and then add it to your favorites list on your computer.
  

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John Boy
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #26 - Jun 25th, 2015 at 4:23pm
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I can't get this to save, what is the secret.

Fred, at the top of main page on the site ... 
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CLICK ON ANY LINK TO DOWNLOAD A LOAD CHART IN PDF FORMAT

Then you'll have a pdf file >click on either Open or Save > Then save it to your computer.  Might want to download each load chart for all the different loading information
  
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John Boy
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Re: Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #27 - Jun 29th, 2015 at 8:43pm
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Test No 2
44WCF Chronograph Reloads Test
Jun 29th - Jury Duty Says Nope, They Don't Need Me Wink
75 degrees - 55% RH
220gr Bullet - No patching

6.0gr Unique
* 956 AVG fps
* 38.3 STDiv
7.0gr Unique
* 1039 AVG fps
* 30.6 STDiv
5.0gr TiteGroup
* 1011 AVG fps
9.5 STDiv
5.5gr ETR7
* 879.8 AVG fps
6.5 STDiv

I'm liking this ETR7 Spanish powder!  Raise the velocity and believe it will be the powder of choice
  
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