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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron (Read 14750 times)
John Boy
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Loading Data for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Jun 20th, 2015 at 5:51pm
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What is a safe velocity using smokeless powder for a 44-40 bullet in the 215-220gr range for a Ballard cast iron?
I have a German bullet company referenced 8.0gr Unique load for a 220gr Pb bullet that equals 1020 fps.
Go - No Go?

If the 1020 fps is too fast, I can also charge the cases with 6.5gr Unique & 5.2gr Tite Group that are respectively 872fps and 780fps
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2015 at 3:57pm by »  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2015 at 9:33am
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I shot 8 grains of unique in a cast frame Ballard 44/40 with a 200 grain bullet with no problems. It is a very mild load with a trajectory similar to a 22 Long Rifle. I've never chronographed it and don't know the velocity.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2015 at 12:19pm
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Deadeye - Thanks!
I would believe the 8.0gr of Unique for a 200gr bullet would be in the range of the original BP load of 1080 fps and a safe reload.  With the 220gr bullet I am going to start low and work up to be on the safe side

What I would like to know is ... what is the maximum pressure for a Ballard action, especially cast iron. If I knew this, could compare to the 44-40 original BP fps of 1080
  
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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2015 at 2:04pm
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OK, I've figured it out ...
* the maximum pressure for a 44-40 per SAAMI is 13,000 cup
* JM Marlin cast action rifles were chambered for 44 rimfires (44 Henry)
*  If the cast receiver was strong enough for the 44 Henry, then any 44-40 reload of any bullet weight that doesn't exceed 44 Henry fps/psi would be a safe reload.
Here is the spec's on a 44 Henry:
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type      Velocity      Energy
200 gr (13 g) lead      1,125 ft/s (343 m/s)      568 ft·lbf (770 J)


So any 44-40 smokeless reload equal to or less than 44 Henry ballistics is safe.  Plus the 44-40 black powder fps for a 200gr bullet is 1018 - another safe reload charge
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #4 - Jun 21st, 2015 at 5:47pm
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John Boy, the limiting thing on the strength of many actions such as the cast Ballard, the 44 Stevens and others is not pressure but back thrust. The 22 Long Rifle cartridge has a SAAMI pressure limit of 24,000 psi. It is suitable for almost all Stevens 44's and cast Ballards except in the worst of cases.

Backthrust is the pressure times the area that it acts upon. The area increases by the square of the radius so a small increase in diameter results in a large increase in the area and the backthrust. Doubling the diameter from .22 to .44 will increase the backthrust 4 times at the same pressure. This is an oversimplification as there are other factors at work but I hope this explains it clearly enough.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #5 - Jun 21st, 2015 at 9:13pm
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Deadeye, I under stand what you posted but had to do some more reading to get a better understanding.  If I got it right the bolt distance & web thickness are also factors in the amount of back thrust
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 9:50am
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The Ballard #2 was not chambered for the .44 Henry. They were chambered for the .44 Long Ballard cartridge. The original .44 Long Ballard used 35 grs. of BP, with a 227 gr. bullet.
The #2 Ballard was also chambered for .44-40, but was later dropped when Marlin decided it might be pushing the limits of the #2 cast action. I've owned a couple original #2's in .44-40, plus one in .44 Long Ballard, and one in .44 Extra Long Ballard. I still own the last two.
  

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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #7 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 11:40am
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Vall, thanks for the clarification that the 44 rimfire was the 44 Long Ballard, not the 44 Henry.  There seems to be some details lacking in the reference books about the 44's - "44 Colt and 44 Winchester" for the No 2.  Then in an 1882 Ballard catalog, it lists the calibers as "44 rimless and 44 Winchester"

The 44 rimfire would be a 44 Long - the 44 Winchester would be the centerfire.  The 44 Long was a centerfire and a rimfire round as advertised in a 1876 catalog page of James Bown & Son.  There was also a 44 R.M. "Remington. Marlin" centerfire listed but no reference to Winchester's 44-40

44 Long Ballard
introduced in c.1876 for the J.M. Marlin Ballard Sporting Rifle No. 2, its 227 grain bullet and 35 grain powder charge gave revolver-level performance, and it was really a centrefire version of the .44 Rimfire.[/u] It did not achieve popularity, and was superceded by the .44 Extra Long Ballard, but both were rapidly eclipsed by the .44/40 Winchester cartridge.
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I'm presuming the reference to ".44 Rimfire" was the 44 Henry
Could not find the velocity for the black powder 44 Long cartridge.  
Did find the Extra Long data to be: a 265gr bullet - 50gr of Fg powder with a velocity of 1320 fps

I feel to be in 'safe haven' shooting 44-40 smokeless reloads with a BP velocity less than the 44 Henry of 1150 fps.  The black powder 44-40 was loaded with a 200gr bullet - 39gr FFFg @ 1180 fps ... both less than the velocity of the Extra Long
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:19pm by »  
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calledflyer
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #8 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:09pm
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Vall, and John Boy, I've gotta hand it to ya. I learned a little more here. This is why the group here is so appealing. I've collected a lot of old ammo, even full boxes of early cartridges. Mostly because they are more affordable than the Pope rifle on the next table. I like them, but harbor no illusion that I'm ever going to have a sample of all the iterations early guns might fire. Still, learning about the stuff is almost, almost as much fun as my other hobby of shooting the darn things.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #9 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 12:44pm
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flyer ... stick with what Vall posts.  He is the old professor and I'm just a wet behind the ears student burying myself in the reference books to learn and try to get a passing grade  Wink

A cartridge collector of renown is John Kort, 44WCF, who doesn't post much here.  John not only collects rounds, he dissects them for inside the cases identification and then shoot them.  John is a true historian because he then prepares reloads - shoots them to match original specifications and then posts the targets
Read this thread from John, My 44-40 Black Powder Journey ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
It's a shame though, he is not into the calibers for Stevens & Ballards
  
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #10 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:00pm
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For what it's worth...
From "The American Cartridge" by Charles R. Suydam (copyright 1960)...

44 Long, WRA Co., powder 28 gr., ball 220 gr.
              UMC Co., powder 28 gr., ball 218 gr.
44 XL Howard, WRA Co., powder 30 gr., ball 220 gr.
                      UMC Co., powder 33 gr., ball 218 gr.
44 Long Ballard, WRA Co., powder 28 gr., ball 220 gr.
                        USC Co., powder 33 gr., ball 251 gr.
44 Extra Long, UMC Co., powder 46 gr., ball 218 gr.
 
Compared to...
44 Henry, powder 26 gr., ball 200 gr.
  

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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 1:20pm
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The thing that has alway stuck in my mind, regarding the 44/40, is the story Ned Roberts told of a bear hunt with his uncle.

Ned shoot the bear numerous times with his new 44/40 lever action rifle and could't put it down. His uncle shot it once with his conical bullet, MLer and saved Ned.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:50pm by frnkeore »  

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calledflyer
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #12 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:36pm
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Broken Arrow, your post points up some of the mystery of these early rimfire (and even CF) rounds. Many are so nearly similar that they may be the same under another name. I have about a zillion 38 rimfires in assorted lengths, bullet shape and size, and where boxed names. Suydam is good, COW is good, and a copy of cartridge conversion by Nonte or other is more than helpful. Even then, a tyro like myself can sure get cornfuzed. So, helping hands like we can get here sure make it nice. Thanks fer chipping in here.
  
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #13 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 2:42pm
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By the way, my only 44-40 was a Colt SA that I traded for one in .45. Which brings it's own loading dilemmas.  Brass was tough to get back then for the WCF round except for ancient stuff. I think it's part of why so many of those things got a .44spl. cylinder put in.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Safe FPS Range for 44-40 in Ballard Cast Iron
Reply #14 - Jun 22nd, 2015 at 5:17pm
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Don't know why I did a chamber cast of the rifle, anyway ... when bore sighting it today, stamped in very tiny lettering is ...44W on the top barrel flat up towards the receiver  Embarrassed
  
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