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PID's (Read 14394 times)

nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	PID's Jun 19^th, 2015 at 7:38am	Print Post
	Gentle folks, I would to pull from the collective experience on here. I have ordered a new lead pot, (lee) and would like to attach a PID to it before I put any lead in it. I have read the article that Roy had written about building a PID and I have the basics down. Where I need to tap into the expertise here is when looking on E-bay there are just too many choices and I don't know enough about that kind of stuff to know what is the right one and what will not do what I want. If cost wasn't a factor it wouldn't be much of a problem but I am a very frugal person so cost is a factor. I see that there are offerings of just a controller, some with the K type thermocouple, some with the SSR and some even include the heat sink. It would be greatly appreciated if someone could wade into that swamp and sort out what would be some of the better buys there. Or at a minimum tell me what I need to look for to short the good from the not so good buys there. Thanks very much Sam


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Fred Boulton Oldtimer Offline Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 6^th, 2007	Re: PID's Reply #1 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 8:52am	Print Post
	What's a PID? Fred


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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: PID's Reply #2 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 9:23am	Print Post
	From Wikipedia :A proportional-integral-derivative controller (PID controller) is a control loop feedback mechanism (controller) widely used in industrial control systems. A PID controller calculates an error value as the difference between a measured process variable and a desired setpoint. The controller attempts to minimize the error by adjusting the process through use of a manipulated variable. Basically its an electronic controller to help to maintain a more constant temp of the melted lead in an electric lead pot. It has a temp probe (thermocouple) inside of the melt and it consistently adjusts the temp control to keep the melt at the desired temp regardless of the volume in the pot. In essence it works like the thermostat in your home. Sam


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Fred Boulton Oldtimer Offline Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 6^th, 2007	Re: PID's Reply #3 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 12:07pm	Print Post
	Thanks! I've been casting for 40+ years without one of these. Now I know what I have been doing wrong! Fred


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 17975 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: PID's Reply #4 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 12:24pm	Print Post
	I use a Fluke meter with a thermocouple on it. Just put the TC into the pot and sense temperature, and adjust. Once set, I haven't felt a need to have constant control. A lot simpler, and cheaper, since I already had the Fluke.

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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3946 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: PID's Reply #5 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 1:00pm	Print Post
	I worked in smokestack emmision monitoring for some time. We used heat monitoring devices of many kinds. The Fluke is a good way, using a K-probe. But, for my casting I've never used anything but looking at the bullets and keeping a hot pot. If I ever used a system to monitor and regulate the heat I'd be too tempted to try to work out the "best" way. I think I've already discovered that! Just another way to eliminate "variables". Just ignore them! Works for me.


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jlmurphy Participating Member Offline Posts: 32 Location: Fallbrook, Ca. Joined: Oct 22^nd, 2010	Re: PID's Reply #6 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 1:54pm	Print Post
	The problem with the standard controller on those pots is that it uses feedback from the heating element to vary the temp. , when the pot is low, it doesn't always match the lead temp. The PID controller actually measures the temp. with the K type thermocouple, the controller uses a transistor switch to turn on the heating element when needed. I installed one in my Lee pot, works great. It is nice to KNOW exactly what the temp is and how much it swings with the addition of lead, tin, even the ladle drops the temp. Buy the set together, make sure it reads in Farenheit, you also have to find away hold the thermocouple in the pot. Go for it.


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Pentz Senior Forum Member Offline Funf und Zwanzig mit den Hut Posts: 435 Location: Vancouver, WA Joined: Sep 4^th, 2014	Re: PID's Reply #7 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 2:50pm	Print Post
	A PID is akin to cruise control on a vehicle. It maintains a constant, preset temperature so that one can pay attention to other details, like driving or casting. Different lead compositions require different temps, and the PID takes out the guesswork. Watch what happens when the sprue is dropped back in! I love mine. When technology makes life simpler why not employ is? We'll buy a $100 mold without hesitation but balk at a $75 PID.

	ASSRA Member Yoostabe # 11497
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 17975 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: PID's Reply #8 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 4:00pm	Print Post
	At the melting temps of lead, a type K or type K thermocouple are both fine. I think my Fluke is a type J TC.

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UtahDave Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 395 Location: Heber City, Utah Joined: Aug 14^th, 2010	Re: PID's Reply #9 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 4:25pm	Print Post
	Sam, I built a PID controller for my homemade lead melting pot and it works great. I can keep the lead at +/- 5 F and it is quick to heat up. You will need a PID controller, SCR (the power switching device), a heat sink and a Type K thermocouple plus some switches, plugs, cords, lights etc. I' installed two PID controllers in a single box that is hung on the wall above the casting fume hood. The No 1 PID is 220 V and controls the melting pot. The No. 2 PID is 110V and controls either a hot plate to preheat molds or lead or a small Lee melting pot that I now use to hold a molten salt bath (nitrate salts) which I run at ~750F to anneal brass. It works great. The Cast Boolits (sic) forum has a sticky on lead pot controllers under the casting equipment section. It is easy to find. They also have recommendations for sources. I bought mine from suppliers that ship from the US. I agree the list is daunting. I don't see any downside to using a PID controller, it is just a thermostat. I actually think that mold temperature is more important and hence the old time recommendation to get into a rhythm. I plan to hook up a temperature meter to my molds to track the variation. I'm just getting ready to build a lead melting pot and PID controller for a shooting buddy. PM me if you want some additional information. Dave


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2942 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: PID's Reply #10 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 9:42pm	Print Post
	Use the same 110v PID controller as UtahDave to power my Lee pot. Started off with a 15A SSr, but it was too restrictive so changed to a 40A and fine ever since. Cast 3000+ bullets this last Jan/Feb using it. Makes my casting life easier. The PID controller, SSR & TC cost about $75. Get your TC (type K) from Omega Engineering. I got my PID controller and SSR off of eBay for $35. Make sure you get the model that goes above 600C, as they sell one that does not. I set the mold on the edge of the pot to preheat and that works fine for me. BTW, you can change the readout to display temp in either F or C, so don't need a conversion chart.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: PID's Reply #11 - Jun 20^th, 2015 at 8:42am	Print Post
	Ok, so basically I need a PID that will go to 800C, a 40A SSR and a K-type TC and that runs on 110 vac. Although it doesn't show it on the things I have looked at on E-bay, does the SSR come with a cover? Also do you drill and tap the center of the bottom of the Lee pot and just screw in the TC? Do you feel that an extra nut would be a good idea to put on the end of the TC inside of the pot to prevent leakage? I don't understand the need for a light and switch. Is there room for these items if I use a standard project box to enclose the PID? One big thing I do see is that there are lots of people selling the same thing and some seem to think that theirs is so much better than someone else's that they want a higher price, thats what seems to me to make things just that much more confusing for some of us. Much the same that I have seen when looking for micrometer heads. There are folks selling them for up to twice what I can purchase them for from a commercial supplier. Kind of makes you want to just set down infront of a good sturdy work bench and just bang your head on the table top. Sam


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Pentz Senior Forum Member Offline Funf und Zwanzig mit den Hut Posts: 435 Location: Vancouver, WA Joined: Sep 4^th, 2014	Re: PID's Reply #12 - Jun 20^th, 2015 at 9:25am	Print Post
	Pigslayer (Pat) over at CBA makes them, $100 delivered TYD. Great guy too. Saves banging one's head.

	ASSRA Member Yoostabe # 11497
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UtahDave Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 395 Location: Heber City, Utah Joined: Aug 14^th, 2010	Re: PID's Reply #13 - Jun 20^th, 2015 at 9:44am	Print Post
	Sam The PID and SCR need to be in a box of some sort because the electrical connections are all bare. I built a box with aluminum front and back but the rest out of 3/8" plywood but you can probably find a project box that works. The SCR gets warm hence it is mounted on the rear aluminum sheet. I also installed switches and pilot lights so I would know the power was on. For a single 110vac unit you could just unplug it. No need to install the tiny screw in thermocouple (TC) in the pot, just buy one you can stick in the pot. The fancy ones in all stainless are maybe $20. The ones with plastic melt. Get one 200 mm or 8 inches long and it will be out of the way. The TCs can be bent. The one that Pat from CBA sells looks good. If you DIY you can probably save a few bucks but spend half a day in the shop. Just be sure to place the electrics so they don't get splashed with lead. Dave


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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: PID's Reply #14 - Jun 20^th, 2015 at 11:00am	Print Post
	had planed on installing everything in a project box. I found one that from the looks of it, I can install a plug to plug in the pot and also plug in the TC. That way I an disconnect everything for easy movement and storage. I don't mind spending the time in the shop, I have the time. but will make a trip over to the CB site and take a look at things there. Do you think that the stick in TC is a better option than the one you screw into the bottom of the pot? Sam


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