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Mick B
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expected accuracy
Jun 12th, 2015 at 8:12pm
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For the last year or so I have been trying to get my CPA 38/56 to shoot reliable groups with black powder. As a control experiment I also tried 18.5 gr of 4227, I'm still trying to live this down in the black powder club I shoot with in Canberra.
Anyway the 4227 shot a group of .770" with four of the shots going into .540". So far my best group with black powder has been .590" and it only happened once. Using black the average group in around .9" to 1.5" when shot on reasonable days, ie, light winds below, say 5 mph.
My rifle has a Lyman STS 25X scope and I am breech seating the PJ Spitzer bullet ahead of 63 gr of Wano PP powder.
Recently I changed from using CCI BR2 primers and CCI 200 LR to Federal 155 large pistol primers which has improved the groups a little. I am now using a floral foam plug in the case mouth instead of the LDPE .060" wad used previously.
My question is, am I missing something or is this about all I can expect using black powder at 100 meters with my current set up. The Stevens is a silhouette model with a Douglas barrel, not a specialised bench rest type.
Cheers
Mike.
  
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boats
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #1 - Jun 12th, 2015 at 10:35pm
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Mick,

Largest obstacle to good BP performance is fowling. What is your shot to shot wiping routine?

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ChrisB
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #2 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 2:10am
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Mike, how many shots in a group? I shoot 7 and at times I get 3 and once, 4 that made one big hole but the remaining shots open the group up to 1 1/2". If I shot groups like yours I would be more than happy. I shoot a Shiloh Sharps 40-70 Sharps Straight with Swiss black. I can't imagine that you will do better than those groups.
Cheers,
Chris  8-)
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ChrisB
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #3 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 2:15am
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Ah' just noticed that you use a scope, but still great shooting. I use a vernier rear sight and an aperture front with 62 year old eyes. I shoot off bench cross sticks. I am shooting a lot with different loads, I want to be able to shoot 1" groups on a regular basis.
I wipe the bore after each shot with one damp patch. I am going to try different ways now.
Good luck.
Chris  Cool
  
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gunlaker
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #4 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 12:32pm
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I haven't seen anyone that can shoot consistent 1" groups at 100 yards with black powder.   Sometimes, but not all the time, especially when using ten shot groups.

I think that once people get serious about black powder accuracy and start competing they talk less about groups and more about scores on official targets so it's harder to get a good idea.  I have a few black powder rifles that have shot ten shot moa groups at 200m, but the best score I've managed on an assra target with BP is only a 243.   I've put my benchrest shooting on hold since the spring as I'm focussing on midrange shooting for the summer.  I'll be back at it again to see if I can improve on that score a bit.

I think for a good idea of the potential of these rifles, check out the benchrest matches that Steve Garbe put on.  From reading match results, it seems that his Ballard put up consistently excellent string measure scores.  I don't know how small those groups would have been, but I think quite small.  I asked on the WSU site about black powder 250's and SPG has done it, but ( at that time ) only in practice, not in a match.

Chris.
  
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #5 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 12:37pm
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Another thing too.  If you are shooting in a 5 mph wind, these little bullets are going to get pushed around.  I'm not sure how much at 100m, but at 200 yards in Tacoma this spring with my .32-40 shooting 1.5 Swiss, I was holding off by the entire width of the 1.79" x-ring to put them in the x-ring.  I'm far from an expert wind reader, but at that time I think the wind was 3 to 5 mph or so.

Chris.
  
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boats
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #6 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 3:49pm
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And 100 metres is almost 110 yards.

Still keep the bore clean black can shoot with smokeless.
It does not mostly because few try.

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Mick B
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #7 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 8:04pm
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Thanks everybody for all the reply's and advice. My wiping routine is one damp patch pushed through the barrel and then reversed, sometimes I have tried following the damp patch with a dry one to mop out any remaining moisture but found no improvement in so doing.
I fire five shot groups after first firing a couple of fouling shots to see if the scope may have moved since my last session, and also to warm up the barrel a little.
The Paul Jones mould casts a beautiful bullet that weighs 327 gr, these are all inspected for any outside defects and weighed. If I cast say 50 bullets in a session a weight spread of slightly over one grain would separate the 50. 
All bullets fired into a group will weigh exactly the same, no variation whatsoever.
Many of the groups that have measured just over an inch usually have four shots in well under that, something like .7" or .9". These flyers are sometimes halfway through the string, sometimes the last shot so buck fever is not  the culprit I believe. 
I guess the purpose of my post was to ascertain if the level of accuracy I'm getting is at least in the ballpark so to speak. 
From the reply's so far it would seem that what I'm getting is about as good as it's going to get with my current setup.
As a matter of interest my 62 gr load of Wano averaged 1260fps with an ES of 16 fps, the 18.5 gr load of 4227 went 1221 fps with an ES of 13 fps.
Mike.
  
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boats
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #8 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 8:23pm
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Mick

We are just guessing 12,000 miles away but nice group then throw one out is a very common thing with Black Powder when fowling builds up.

Why not try aggressive wiping until the bore is absolutely clean and dry between shots.  Best results I had with BP breech seating was with a short brush scrubbing the chamber and a few inches into the barrel then with brush full length. Finishing with wet and dry patch's until it comes out perfectly clean. 

Can't hurt to overdo it then back down to a more reasonable routine if real clean shows promise

Boats
  
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bpjack
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #9 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 8:37pm
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Last weekend I decided to try some other black powder in my 38-55 high wall.  I have been using some 1972 vintage Goex FF that I got for free from a co-worker.  It was shooting fairly well in both my 45-95 HW and the 38-55.  Nothing to write home about, with around 3" groups at 200 yds in the 38.  I had some newer Goex FF and some old Swiss 1F from when it was first being distributed by Petro-Explo.  I had loaded up 6 rds of each with the same volume as I had been using with the older Goex.  The old FF weighed 42 gr, the newer FF weighed 38 gr and the Swiss 1F weighed 44 gr all with approximately .2" compression, a CCI 200 primer and a Saeco 302 gr 30-1 lubed with SPG with blow tubing only.   The winds were a bit swirly as they always seem to be at my home range as the old FF load shot about 3+ inches and the newer FF was patterning at about 6 inches.  With the Swiss shot 2 was about 2 inched left of shot 1 and shots 3 through 6 were within an inch of #1.  
  I went back to the range today with about 17 rounds of the Swiss and after 2 foulers shot a 1-1/8 vertical by 2-1/8 horizontal 7 shot group in conditions where the smoke at the muzzle would run hard right while the dust from the impact on the berm would run hard left.  I tried some 340 gr ideal bullets but they shot horribly.  With 3 Saeco rds left, I put them into a 7/8" group. All shots were at 200 yds with a 12X Targetspot.  
I am very satisfied that that Swiss load is as accurate as I can expect from this rifle and this shooter.  I only shoot iron sights in competition with BP and expect this load to be competitive.  I will be using it at Tacoma in September.  Hope to see you there again Chris.

Jack
  

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oneatatime
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #10 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 9:20pm
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Jack, FWIW, in a pretty well controlled test I ran back when, 25 to 1 shot much better than 30 to 1 and 20 to 1 shot a little better than 25 to 1. Something else to try.
  
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bpjack
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #11 - Jun 13th, 2015 at 9:44pm
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I have tried 20-1 and 24-1, several different primers, various levels of compression.  Sacrificing chickens, standing on my head and too many other things over the years.  Eventually something works out, then you get a new lot of powder!

Jack
  

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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #12 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 12:53am
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I think Swiss works vey well too.  I definitely get more consistent results using it in my .32-40 than with other powders.  Like Boats I think you want the bore to be really clean for the best accuracy. 

Jack I hope to be there in September too.  It will depend on the plans my wife has for us.  My plan is to probably shoot a .38-55 with paper patched bullets this time, if I can get the rifle sorted out in time.  I haven't shot it yet though Smiley

Chris.
  
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #13 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 2:47am
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Does the use of floral foam wads have any negative impact on fouling when used with black powder?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: expected accuracy
Reply #14 - Jun 14th, 2015 at 6:15pm
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The floral foam disintegrates into a powder in the barrel.

This powder will be ejected or become part of the fouling.

A good bullet lubricant with the right viscosity and a good emulsifier will mix in the fouling and wipe it out of the barrel with the next shot.
  
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