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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Schuetzen History (Read 42555 times)
Dr.Maynard
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #30 - May 27th, 2015 at 4:57pm
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Questionable Maynard :

I'm out the door on my way home in about three minutes, but I wanted to first stop and tell you I enjoyed your response immensely.  It was very well written and provides excellent information which was heretofore left out.

I would like to respond further in a day or two, however, wanted to say that once a professional title is earned, and the individual later retires, the title is never dropped in a professional setting.  I still call my mentor "General" even though he is a Brigadier General retired from military service, and call another "Judge" even though he is retired from the bench.

Titles demand respect in my circles, whether the title holder be at the golf club or a social gathering.

Thanks again for contributing,
Dr.Maynard
  
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frnkeore
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #31 - May 27th, 2015 at 5:06pm
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I was in the military and beleave me, those titles DON'T mean a thing (in civilian life) and don't even get you in the realm of common since! A poor shooting General is a poor shooter, period.

Don't even get me started on Judges. The ONLY thing they have is power over you, when you are before them!

People are people, Rank and status has no bearing on that, it's what you do with your life and how you treat people that matters.

Frank
  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #32 - May 27th, 2015 at 6:42pm
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I think we ought to go over to Philo's house and he'll fill us in on the history. He also has plenty of glasses for us to drink out of, I can see. Maybe someone will bring some "stakes", and we'll make a real outing of it. Maybe watch some polo on tv. Pat
  
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JLouis
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #33 - May 27th, 2015 at 8:04pm
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Respect is a human trait that is earned by ones walk in life and not to be demanded based on one's education, title or financial status and to do other wise would be disrespectful to ones self.

JLouis
  

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marlinguy
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #34 - May 27th, 2015 at 8:32pm
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I agree with both Frank and JLouis! Respect has absolutely no bearing on what a person did in life, nor what he does presently. It also has no bearing on his financial status. 
Some of the men I respect most in life never finished grade school, never entered the military, and never were rich men. But they were men of honor, and men of their word. I'd venture to say, that most of my friends fall into that category, and I hold their friendship in high honor.
That's not to say that my friends from the military, or friends who do have high educations, or great paying jobs, aren't also the same. But I'd never know those things about them, without a long term relationship; as they never flaunt that part of themselves.
  

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40_Rod
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #35 - May 28th, 2015 at 8:31am
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I have always thought less of a man that had to glue an unearned title ,especially military, on to his name. whether it be Major Roberts, Col Winchester or Col. Sanders it’s a cheap attempt to insinuate service that was never rendered.

40 Rod
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #36 - May 28th, 2015 at 8:33am
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John,  some of those type honorific titles were 'awarded" by state governments as strictly-ornamental officers in the respective state militias-----I seem to recall that is the case with winchester -----but may be wrong about that.   The Ky. Col. was a near legendary laughing stock long before it was applied by the chicken peddler.  I believe it is still awarded as a state honorific  (In Indiana they have the "Sagamore of the Wabash" honorary title---I have no real idea what the native american population thinks of that---but I think I can make a good guess)

JMHO,  when those honorary or brevet titles are honored in civilian life by acclaim it is one thing.   When they are used by the individual as a self-identifier, example a well known fried chicken merchant, they are little more than a self-promotional marketing item--or an ego-crutch.  again JMHO

We have to remember that context of the "schuetzen-era" when a huge percentage of the american male population had been in active military service and the impact of war and warriors on the national culture in the last half of the 19th Century was MUCH greater that it is now.   Remember that MOST of the military in the Civil War was made up of locally recruited units with local men as officers--frequently elected to that office.  the local companies were amalgamated by their states into regional regiments and eventually placed into federal service.   For better or worse the armies had a VERY strong populist and local identity.  Officers who were effective and successful (and survived) carried that earned respect back home into their later civilian life even if they were later Federalized into the Regular Army---Custer being a controversial case in point.  Those who proved to be abusive, ineffective, or worst-case, drunken cowards, were shunned and ridiculed upon return home and frequently had to leave the local community with their tainted reputations.

the times and culture being what they were back then, before mass media homogenized things, local acclaim and consensus respect as evidenced by the titles used was a highly significant factor since everyone know who was "real" and which ones were "poseurs" or "marketeers"------Take that "Col." Cody!!!! Grin Grin  LOL
« Last Edit: May 28th, 2015 at 8:45am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #37 - May 28th, 2015 at 9:02am
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Become a titled Baron or Lord
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Titles mean nothing if they can be cheaply bought.
Those earned by hard work deserve respect.
  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. Let's Go Sonny!
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40_Rod
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #38 - May 31st, 2015 at 9:44am
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I still find the use of titles by people who no longer are actually doing the job to be vaguely offensive. Whether it’s a former senator or a former Major they are no longer in office and no longer deserve the title. This is America and we do not have titled rank, we are all citizens we have no Dukes or Earls and no one should have the right to insinuate some self imposed importance based on something he did in the past. My favorite is everybody who has earned a bullcrap doctorate in “Woman’s Studies or Gender Studies making everyone around them refer to them as Doctor like they were a brain surgeon. It’s nothing more than self aggrandizement for people who are too shallow to stand on what they are.
For the record when I am finally paroled from the Journal I will gladly drop Editor from my name.

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #39 - May 31st, 2015 at 11:11am
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to hark back to a previous aspect of the historical discussion.    With no offense offered to anyone, please!!!!
The demise of "schuetzen" (if defined as a formal offhand form of competitive riflery at ranges up to approximately 200 yards/meters as it originated among the Germano-Swiss shooting clubs) is a rather complex topic I'm still trying to study and sort out. 
 So far I have concluded that the WW1 anti-German feelings were certainly a part of it, but it was a much more complex evolution with a number of interacting factors. 
Among them are the suburban expansion of population in the cities that supported the schuetzen-parks and a rapid shift in real estate values, the generational/cultural shifts as it impacted the Germano-Swiss ethnic enclaves, the mass exposure (WW1) of the young male population to a "modern" form of riflery involving high power bolt action rifles, advanced powders and jacketed bullets--with firing "form" based on the more militarily applicable standing sitting kneeling and prone positions with relatively little emphasis on the standing offhand portion, the resulting availability of military surplus arms and ammo, the NRAs shift with the DCM to a semi-military form of rifle sport.  And finally the advent of reliable and inexpensive 22 rimfire ammunition of match quality and the growth of indoor gallery & 3-position shooting.
Like I said its a real complex topic and the frequent blaming on "anti-german prejudice"  is a long standing over-simplification.  One I also espoused until I started looking at more closely.  We really need to look at the history of our sport in its overall socio-economic context to get an accurate picture.
« Last Edit: May 31st, 2015 at 9:10pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #40 - May 31st, 2015 at 12:18pm
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Colonel Sanders made it work for him.














« Last Edit: May 31st, 2015 at 12:23pm by westerner »  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #41 - May 31st, 2015 at 12:47pm
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Wayne makes a very good point and it Looks like that woman wants more that the Colonel's chicken leg. I may have to move to KY and get me one of those Colonel things Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #42 - May 31st, 2015 at 12:56pm
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I think QM is correct in thinking that there was a lot more to the demise of Schuetzen than just anti-German attitudes fostered by the 1914-1918 war.   

I am not clear as to when the "National Matches" with military rifles began.  I think they evolved from the publicity given the matches between British, Irish & American teams in the mid-1870s.  They were held at Sea Girt, NJ and perhaps other places by the very late 1890s.  The Krag was the rifle used.  Pope was making barrels for use in military-type matches before he entered into the Stevens-Pope contracts.  State Guard & civilian teams were competing by 1900, but the total number of shooters involved at all stages was probably smaller than the total number of Schuetzen shooters.  The military ranges required a lot more real estate than the Schuetzen parks, the ammunition was more expensive, and travel to the ranges took more time and expense.   

The poor marksmanship of British troops in the Boer War and the corresponding performance by US troops in the war in Cuba caused a re-thinking of military marksmanship training techniques.  The Brits developed "military miniature" rifle shooting using .22 rimfire rifles as a cost-effective training technique.  It could be done indoors & out.  This led to formal matches by 1899 & the equipment race was on in the UK.   

In 1900, competitive miniature rifle shooting came to the US.  Winchester already had the rimfire musket in their catalog.  They began to sell.  Pope designed a conversion unit for the Krag,  They were sold under the Stevens-Pope arrangement and the equipment race came to America.  In 1905, Winchester began making the first of the Winder Muskets.  Within a few years, Stevens added the 404 and 414 to their line.  These rifles were less costly to make than the Schuetzens still in the catalog and the prices were much lower.

The Schuetzen game had already provided a market for match-grade Shorts.  Military-style matches held outdoors, on ranges of 100, 200 and even 300 yards were a market for match-grade Long Rifle cartridges.

In WW1, the US military trained about 2 million young men to shoot, and 22 rimfires were a big part of the training.  That is 50 to 100 times more potential new shooters than all the Schuetzen shooters combined.

In 1919, the first postwar rimfire matches were held.  Winchester brought out the 52.  Traditional single shots could not compete.  Add demographics, real estate values & prohibition and the Schuetzen Clubs died.


  
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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #43 - May 31st, 2015 at 1:28pm
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Well put DW!
  

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Re: American Schuetzen History
Reply #44 - May 31st, 2015 at 2:08pm
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This is what a rifle looked like before and after WWI;
  
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