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Carbon fouling (Read 19790 times)

gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2585 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Carbon fouling Apr 9^th, 2015 at 12:39pm	Print Post
	Hi, I've found that shooting smokeless is definitely interesting, and different than using BP, but I didn't expect fouling to be a significant concern. When shooting BP, I wipe between shots. Sometimes the patch feels a little tighter just in front of the chamber and I then short stroke a patch and break up any accumulated fouling. After a day's shooting the bore comes clean with only three or four patches. Now that I'm shooting SR-4759 I seem to be developing hard carbon fouling in front of the case mouth. When I clean it after a day at the range I can push countless patches through without getting I completely clean. I've been using Butches Bore Shine or Hoppes #9 as a solvent. How are you guys dealing with this? I've tried running a couple of dry patches ( scrubbing the throat bit ) between targets, but then it throws flyers for two or so shots. Even doing this, there is still a lot of carbon fouling at the end of the day. I have to think that this fouling has go to be hurting the accuracy. Thanks, Chris.


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nuclearcricket Oldtimer Offline Posts: 823 Joined: Oct 15^th, 2008	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #1 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 12:55pm	Print Post
	Carbon can and does build up when using smokeless powder. I don't think that most shooters really notice it as they hunt and shoot a few rounds a year. When shooting competition and/or service rifles you will see a lot of carbon. Especially in gas operated rifles. Thats why it takes 3 days of cleaning to get all the carbon out of an AR type rifle. One solvent that I have found that does a good job and isn't expensive is Ed's Red. I used that to clean up some safe queens last fall and I found one that hadn't been cleaned or shot in probably close to 2 decades and it had a lot of carbon in it. Some work with Eds Red and a brush and the stuff came right out. I was impressed. Any more I think I would rather deal with the deposits from Black than I would the carbon from smokeless. Sam


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ClaMar Full Member Offline Posts: 141 Location: Texas Joined: Jul 23^rd, 2013	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #2 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 1:45pm	Print Post
	Gunlaker, I've shot quite a lot of .30-06 and .303 cast bullet loads. Gas-check bullets, which may be different than yours, but no trace of carbon buildup in several years of use with no cleaning. I was using the same home-brew lube as in my BPCR's at the time-pure yellow beeswax with neatsfoot oil (about 60/40). I've since used the same lube in a .45-70 with smokeless and haven't noticed carbon buildup in 100 rounds or more. Clarence


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JLouis Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 10625 Joined: Apr 8^th, 2009	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #3 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:06pm	Print Post
	Carbon is indeed an issue that one has to stay up on and if you don't it will start building up in the bottom of the grooves and will diminish your groove size. If you let it go it will get so hard that it will damn near impossible to get it all out. If you have ever seen a carbon ring / dounut right in front of the chamber it will make you a believer and yes it will destroy accuracy in very short order. Those who believe they don't get carbon fouling should take a closer look, the lube one uses has nothing to do with it not being there just maybe in a lesser amount. Myself I use JB Bore Paste and have done so for as long as I can remember. I also generaly clean every two score targets and I don't recommend going all day without cleaning. If you pay close attention you can see the accuracy starting to fall off and it won't come back until you clean. It is easy to blame it on a change of conditions, yourself or something other than. JLouis

	" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4228 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #4 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:43pm	Print Post
	I always clean my rifle after every shooting event (40 to 100 shots). I clean only with patches using a lead remover (Copper Cutter No. 10, Shooter's Choice lead remover or Hoppe's #9). Monthly I will also clean with JB Bore Paste. After every cleaning I wipe cleaning residues using Kroil oil. For smokeless I shoot three shots into the berm before going on target. You need to warm your barrel and have consistent fouling before your smokeless loads will mark consistently. Lead remover will not remove the carbon fouling (proven from inspections with a bore scope). It builds up slowly and that is why I occasionally clean with JB Bore Paste. I have found there is no need to use wire brushes. You have to have the right solvent to get the job done.
	« Last Edit: Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:56pm by Schuetzendave »

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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7627 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #5 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:47pm	Print Post
	I've been dealing with carbon fouling for 3 years now, using AA #9. Some batches will foul in 20 - 25 rounds and I can shoot all day with others (I've used 4 different lots). The worst batch, I don't have a cure for but, the fouling comes out with Xelene/Tolulene mix, the same as I use for lead fouling. For my last match, I used H110 and had no detectable carbon fouling. The barrel looked the same after about 50 rounds BUT, didn't shoot near as well at the same velocity level as #9. With the medium fouling #9, I've found that the accuracy can be restored by running one dry, thight patch through the barrel to finish the match then cleaning after. I thought the H110 was promicing because the barrel looked so good but, didn't have the accuracy. I have to try it one more time before I give up. I'v shot a lot of 4759, in the past but, never noticed carbon fouling, only unburnt kernels from low pressure. All my 4759 is from 20 years ago or more but, new when I shot it. I think here, 4227 will be your friend. Frank

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2585 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #6 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:48pm	Print Post
	Thanks very much. After posting I did some reading and found a nice article on carbon fouling issues in 22lr target rifles. I drove out to pick up some JB Bore paste immediately afterward. I'm going to see if I can get the remaining carbon out now. I should have included more info in my first post. I'm shooting a .32-40 and am breech seating a Hoch 202gr bullet lubed with SPG. The powder charge is 14.3gr of SR-4759 and is definitely a bit dirty. The exterior of the cartridge mouth gets reasonably sooty after four targets, and I'm sure there is a greater amount deposited in the bore. I haven't ever tried Ed's Red but probably will one day. Is it much different than Kroil? Chris.


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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4228 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #7 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:51pm	Print Post
	CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner 1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later. 1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1 1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS #64741-49-9, or substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or equivalent, (aka "Varsol") 1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1. Kroil is a penetrating oil that lifts fouling, solvent and lead particles from the crevices of your rifling. Helps get all the cleaning stuff etc. out of your barrel. Also helps protect the barrel before the next shot.


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2585 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #8 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:52pm	Print Post
	Thank you Dave and Frank. I see you posted just when I was replying. It seems that I'm on the right track then. I will try 4227 before long, but am leaving for Tacoma tomorrow so don't have time for more experiments until afterward. I started with the 4759 because I had about a pound and a half and since it was discontinued I thought this was the most enjoyable way to use it up. Chris.


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2942 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #9 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 2:55pm	Print Post
	Be judicious with that JB bore paste. Most barrel makers will void the warranty if they know you've used it. That should tell you something. Am wondering how many smokeless rounds you have through your barrel. It burns much hotter than BP and it sounds as if you may have some roughness/throat erosion. Just received some new jags from tcsgunshop.com in upstate NY. 40cal for the 40-65 and a 25cal for the 25-20. They are machined with a couple of O-rings to hold the patch against the bore. Was put on to them by one our many-times national champions that shoots the same match with us most months. Wondering if that might help with your hard fouling. They also included a couple of oz sample of a carbon solvent that is blue rather than red. The 'red stuff' is often a mix of auto-transmission fluid and a solvent.
	« Last Edit: Apr 9^th, 2015 at 3:02pm by SSShooter »
	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Schuetzendave Frequent Elocutionist Offline Retired Ex-Shooter Posts: 4228 Location: St. Albert, Alberta Joined: Jan 28^th, 2005	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #10 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 3:15pm	Print Post
	Ron Smith (RKS Barrels) has used JB Bore Paste in his barrels for over thirty years. He says it does absolutely no damage to his chrome moly or stainless steel barrels; but is very effective at removing carbon fouling. Which barrel makers have such stipulations?


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JackHughs Oldtimer Offline Posts: 657 Location: Riverbank Joined: Sep 27^th, 2008	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #11 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 4:03pm	Print Post
	Schuetzendave wrote on Apr 9^th, 2015 at 3:15pm: Ron Smith (RKS Barrels) has used JB Bore Paste in his barrels for over thirty years. He says it does absolutely no damage to his chrome moly or stainless steel barrels; but is very effective at removing carbon fouling. Which barrel makers have such stipulations? I don't know about voiding warranties, but Dan Lilja strongly advises against repetitive use of products such as Iosso and JB. Mr. Lilja is of the opinion that a highly polished bore is more susceptible to fouling. I believe that this is sound advice for rimfire barrels. On the other hand, I use Ed's Red, Iosso, JB, Bronze brushes, lead cloth patches, and even #4 steel wool on centerfire barrels as seems fit at the time - no problems. JackHughs

	The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B. Yeats
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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #12 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 4:29pm	Print Post
	How much of that ring in the throat is primer residue? I ask only because I had an experience some years ago with that Aguila primer-only ammo in an old Hopkins and Allen plinker. Boy howdy, that stuff left a hard ring that took days of soaking with Hoppes or Ed's Red to get it loose enough to brush out.

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2585 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #13 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 4:31pm	Print Post
	I don't know how many rounds have been through the barrel as I bought the rifle used. It is a target rifle and Ron Smith made the barrel in 1990 so it has probably seen a lot of rounds. I think the barrel is in good shape because it cleans up very easily when I shoot black powder. I don't really know though. This year I plan on buying a Hawkeye so will eventually find out Chris.


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Jeff_Schultz ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 1657 Location: Ransomville, NY Joined: Apr 25^th, 2004	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #14 - Apr 9^th, 2015 at 5:11pm	Print Post
	Re: Carbon fouling Reply #9 - Today at 2:55pm Quote Report PostPrint Post Be judicious with that JB bore paste. Most barrel makers will void the warranty if they know you've used it. That should tell you something. That statement is "Pure Bullshit." I agree with J Louis; he summed it up nicely.
	« Last Edit: Apr 9^th, 2015 at 5:17pm by Jeff_Schultz »
	"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo “There is no situation so bad that it cannot be made worse." Confidence- The feeling you get before you fully understand the situation.
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