Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2 (Read 10253 times)
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Mar 2nd, 2015 at 9:59am
Print Post  
I shot my BSA 12/15 in 30-20 on sunday, as usual:
- 16.7grs of BP
- Factory-new R-P brass (from pulled factory cartridges)
- Card wad
- 151gr GG bullet, sized to .309 - the only change (before, I was shooting as-cast)

As I was pressed for time, I only fired 10 shots - as usual, prone, unsupported, with sling.  blowtubing between shots (1 single blow).  And this is what happened:
1st shot: centered, but high in the 9-ring
2nd and 3rd:  nicely in the 10-ring - me happy!
4th:  6 at 5 o'clock - ???  Let-off was good, no signs of a bad cartridge.
6-10:  all clustering in the same position as the 4th shot (6-7 ring at 5 o'clock).  Accuracy remained identical the last 7 shots , so I doubt this would be a fouling issue.  I even wiped the last 3 shots, and they also remained in that very same group.

To summarize, I had a pretty serious POI shift (3 MOA left, 2 MOA down)  from the 4th shot without any loss of accuracy, and I am at a loss as to why - maybe someone else can give me a plausible explanation?  Still scratching my head over that one.

Cleaning the rifle afterwards didn't show anything special - if anything, less fouling than last time.
« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:04am by MartiniBelgian »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
nuclearcricket
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 830
Joined: Oct 15th, 2008
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #1 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:42am
Print Post  
Could be one or more of many things. My best guess at this time is:1 more trigger time, use the same load if possible or at least as many of the same components as possible. It may be a primer issue. Since your using factory primed cases that could be the cause. 2 the gremlin got you. Got to watch out for those range gremlins. They attack when least expected.
Good luck
Sam
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #2 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:50am
Print Post  
Sam,

the only change was sized vs. unsized bullets - all the rest was identical.  Range Gremlins, now - hadn't thought of those....
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
art_ruggiero
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1222
Location: CT
Joined: Dec 14th, 2008
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #3 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:51am
Print Post  
gert;  please explain, what makes up  a 30/20?   art
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #4 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:54am
Print Post  
Art,

Quite simple really:  Just a 32-20 with a .308 barrel - in my case a 1:15 twist.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7729
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #5 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:04am
Print Post  
About the only thing you can do now is load up ten .309 and ten as cast. post two targets and shoot alternating shots of both loads, to keep the fouling the same.

Maybe make up some X-sticks to help with steadiness for the longer string.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
bnice
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1987
Location: Iowa
Joined: Nov 30th, 2006
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #6 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 2:33pm
Print Post  
Try it without the sling. Sling pressure can make a big difference especially on a rifle that the forearm is attached to the barrel. With all the moving around you probably did loading, etc. I would suspect the tension changed. Also don't mix sized and unsized, there weights are probably different and fit is probably different so either could cause a shift
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MikeT
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 295
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Joined: Sep 7th, 2005
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 4:49pm
Print Post  
Maybe the barrel condition did not settle down until the fourth shot.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SSShooter
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2944
Location: Southern NJ
Joined: Aug 1st, 2010
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 7:05pm
Print Post  
Outside temp & humidity for this round compared to the temp & humidity for the previous?
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #9 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 6:05am
Print Post  
I don't believe it to be a sling issue - although incorrect use of the sling can and will indeed cause fliers.  But not that much.  Moreover, I would have to be etremely consistent in shots 4-10 with that mistake.
This session was maybe a bit warmer (so higher humidity) than last time, but not dramatically so.  Same fouling management though except for the last 3 shots).
Barrel condition: probably something to do with that - at least, that's what I suspect.  But then why did the accuracy remain the same?  A very nice group, just somewhere else...
I'll see if I can do another test thursday evening, and see where she'll hit then.

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #10 - Mar 6th, 2015 at 4:59am
Print Post  
Well,

I put another 20 shots on target yesterday evening.  After putting in the corrections required by the POI shift, she behaved this time, keeping a stable POI throughout.  Same load, same bullets, half a breath blowtubing between shots (a full breath puts too much moisture in that teeny little bore).  Grouping stayed stable throughout, even though I pulled a few shots.   

I did have a bit of vertical  (about 2 MOA) but that and the pulled shots was 'nut-behind' issue (mostly sling and sight management - P-H aperture sights).

I'm still fireforming brass, so we'll see what unsized, fireformed brass will do after I emptied the current box (20 rounds to go).

Cheers,
Gert
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7755
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #11 - Mar 6th, 2015 at 8:48am
Print Post  
Opinion ? here's one

Minnie Ball Rifle on a dry hot day will fowl so bad it’s hard to seat a ball. Target shooting no time limits I dump the hard seated charge into the backstop then clean.  Sometimes a shot will blow the fouling out going back to seating the bullets easy and shooting to point of aim.  You can feel the difference in the rod and see it on target.

Blow tubing was developed for short BPCS relays and not coming out of prone position during the relay.  True accuracy with black powder takes wiping every shot.  You can probably get a 1/4 inch Delrin rod through from the breech end.  It's possible with a high comb tang sighted 32/40 or a Trapdoor. Don't know about Martini's

Used to blow tube my rifles, After shifting to wiping between shots don't have confidence in the tube anymore.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #12 - Mar 6th, 2015 at 1:05pm
Print Post  
Blowtubing or wiping is something to test later on, when I have the fireformed brass.  I do have a Delrin rod ready and tried it - it's possible, but not easy.
And as you said, the advantage of a blowtube is not having to break position between shots.  I'd probably go to a mixed regime when wiping - blowtube a full breath, then follow up with a dry patch to get most fouling out.

Still, I have 20 rounds to go in this box for fireforming and 100 after that, so plenty of time...  And I have the next bullet already lined up: the Pope 308403.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
nuclearcricket
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 830
Joined: Oct 15th, 2008
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #13 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 6:31am
Print Post  
Martin, since your second session went so much better than the first and everything was the same, I am just wondering if perhaps the primers were the cause of the group shift in your first session. Since your using factory loaded primers, I am just wondering of perhaps there was a lot change that happened in the ammunition that you  had picked up? Kind of guessing here but may be something to think about. I think it will be interesting to see what and if there are any changes when you fully reload your cases and what changes different primers may make.
Sam
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1736
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Shooting a 30-20 with BP in a single shot - part 2
Reply #14 - Mar 7th, 2015 at 2:17pm
Print Post  
To be frank, all the cases were fom the same box of ammo, so I doubt the primer thing.  One thing for sure - I'll start load development with small pistol primers.   The small case won't need rifle primers, certainly not with BP.  But the POI did remain after the shift. so...
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint