Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Comparing BP to smokeless (Read 23031 times)
graduated peep
Ex Member


Comparing BP to smokeless
Mar 1st, 2015 at 10:39am
Print Post  
I've allowed myself to get into a running discussion concerning the attributes between BP and smokeless and some of the hows and whys behind reloading for same.
So I would like to hear whether my take on some aspects is correct or flawed.

What they say- magnum primers should be used in loading BP because it is SLOW burning compared to smokeless and it needs the extra heat to make sure it goes off correctly.
What I say- Any primer will set off BP and it isn't slow burning. But it is inefficient and leaves a lot of residue. Magnum primers help burn that leftover residue and may give a bit of boost to the load. 
And after all, magnum primers were designed for modern magnum cartridges with slow burning SMOKELESS powders, not BP cartridges.

What they say- Smokeless powders burn faster than BP and that is why they generate more pressure and need heavier chambers than BP guns.
What I say- Smokeless generates more pressure by nature of it's chemical makeup, not just by it's burn rate alone.My impression is that smokeless can generate  3 times or more pressure as BP on a volume for volume basis.
So, am I close to being on target ?? Huh
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SSShooter
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2942
Location: Southern NJ
Joined: Aug 1st, 2010
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #1 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 1:31pm
Print Post  
On the primers.................. many, if not most BP shooters have moved away from magnum primers as the feeling is they burn so hot they lead to incomplete combustion of the BP and a fair amount is thrown out of the barrel unburned. Whatever the exact mechanism, I find that standard LR primers work better then magnum in my 38-56 & 40-65. 

  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7611
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #2 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 1:41pm
Print Post  
BP is very easy to light, if you've ever shot a flintlock, you'll know that. The slightest sprark and it's gone. I shot slug guns for a few years (only straight black is allowed) and they all used SP primers. Slug gunners by nature are experimentors and the only primers that they would use, where 1 1/2 Remingtons (that was in the days that you could get ANY primer at your local store), Remington pistol are some of the weakest but, fully reliable primers you can get. I don't think that even today that cartridge rifles can beat the old slug gun scores at <220 yards.

Regarding volume for volume, I think you can get even higher pressures if your including pistol powder in that. Many of the ball powders have about the same density as BP (16 gr per cc) but, a powder like Titegroup, I think would go much higher than 3 - 1 using the same volume. I do think that 3 - 1 would work with H110/4227 types.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
graduated peep
Ex Member


Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #3 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 2:02pm
Print Post  
So in essence , my thinking is correct:  magnum primers are not a prerequisite;  as BP is extremely easy to ignite . Easier in most cases than smokeless.
And smokeless has more inherent energy potential based on it's chemical makeup compared to BP.
Burning rate is not the only controlling factor in pressure generation when using smokeless ?
In the other fellow's words- smokeless generates more pressure than BP because it burns faster than BP.
To me that is an erroneous statement, and doesn't take a whole lot of factors into consideration.

Just for the record, I've shot BP rifles for about 30 years.
I was in silhouette back in the day when Federal Magnum primers were considered a must have, and were even specified in Garbe & Venturino's BP primer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4227
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #4 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 4:07pm
Print Post  
Those that are having powder pushed out the barrel may be because their:

1. Barrels are too short.
2. Packing too much powder in the case to burn in the barrel.
3. Using coarse powder which will not completely burn in the barrel.

I have switched to FFFg powder and I use R.P. 9 1/2M primers and I get excellent ignition; with only ash and smoke coming out of my barrel, and no burning embers in front of my bench.

With the fine powder and magnum primers I get complete combustion, and no unburned carbon causing fouling in my 30  inch barrels.

Primers are more about combustion, rather than ignition. And having unburned powder coming out of your barrel may be due to other factors.

By using finer BP I get increased velocities without adding additional powder that can contribute to increased fouling.

So I use the hottest and longest flash primers to ensure all of the powder is completely combusted to a fine ash before it exits the barrel.
« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2015 at 4:16pm by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
craigster
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 822
Location: lost coast CA
Joined: Feb 20th, 2011
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #5 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 11:27pm
Print Post  
When ignited,  back  powder explodes, smokeless powder burns. Put another way, BP is explosive, whereas smokeless power is extremely flammable.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seanmp
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 294
Location: Land O Lakes
Joined: May 19th, 2014
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #6 - Mar 1st, 2015 at 11:37pm
Print Post  
craigster wrote on Mar 1st, 2015 at 11:27pm:
When ignited,  back  powder explodes, smokeless powder burns. Put another way, BP is explosive, whereas smokeless power is extremely flammable.

Technically I must disagree. There is no supersonic Wave associated with BP combustion So it deflagrates Which is the most convoluted over used way of saying it burns by ordinary means
  

Sean
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
UtahDave
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 395
Location: Heber City, Utah
Joined: Aug 14th, 2010
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #7 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 12:14am
Print Post  
I think it is all "black magic" but your mileage may vary:)

I agree with seanmp.



Dave
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
craigster
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 822
Location: lost coast CA
Joined: Feb 20th, 2011
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #8 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 1:01am
Print Post  
Technically I must disagree as well.

IMR's packaging:

DANGER EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE*

*Smokeless powder for small arms is not an explosive regulated by Federal Explosive Law, but may explode if misused.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1733
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #9 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 4:02am
Print Post  
Terminology - check deflagration and detonation: it's all in the speed of the flame front and shockwave.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Seanmp
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 294
Location: Land O Lakes
Joined: May 19th, 2014
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #10 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 8:20am
Print Post  
craigster wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 1:01am:
Technically I must disagree as well.
IMR's packaging:
DANGER EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE*
*Smokeless powder for small arms is not an explosive regulated by Federal Explosive Law, but may explode if misused.

It does not matter what is printed on the label of the IMR can or the loaf of wonder bread.

Black powder only requires a spark to get up to its full flame speed. Smokeless requires a secondary component to act as a detonator to get up to full flame speed.

That is the ONLY reason why there is different transport and storage regulations. They are both ordinary combustibles.
  

Sean
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 12275
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #11 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 8:36am
Print Post  
Black powder stinks.

    Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Retired Ex-Shooter

Posts: 4227
Location: St. Albert, Alberta
Joined: Jan 28th, 2005
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #12 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 8:50am
Print Post  
Black powder stinks.

And two stroke engines stink as well.
The question is how do they perform best.
« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2015 at 9:09am by Schuetzendave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 12275
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #13 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 9:14am
Print Post  
Two stroke engines do not stink, they sound funny.

       Joe. 

  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
graduated peep
Ex Member


Re: Comparing BP to smokeless
Reply #14 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 1:55pm
Print Post  
Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 8:50am:
Black powder stinks.

And two stroke engines stink as well.
The question is how do they perform best.


If your two stroke stinks, your not usin' castor based oil in it  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint