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Comparing BP to smokeless (Read 23037 times)

graduated peep Ex Member	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #15 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 1:57pm	Print Post
	westerner wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 9:14am: Two stroke engines do not stink, they sound funny. Joe. You want to hear "funny", put 3 expansion chambers on a Kawasaki MACH IV.


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RoyB Oldtimer Offline Posts: 838 Location: Dartmouth, MA Joined: Mar 28^th, 2011	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #16 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 1:58pm	Print Post
	My understanding is BP and Smokeless can be metered to achive the same pressures. You will use more BP by volum and weight for the same prtessure. But the pressure "spikes" are much greater with smokeless. This is the reason folks might want to think twice about using smokeless powder in old BP firearms. It's not the pressure, its the very quick rise to that pressure......Yes?

	Roy B Dartmouth, MA (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)
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Seanmp Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 294 Location: Land O Lakes Joined: May 19^th, 2014	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #17 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 7:21pm	Print Post
	westerner wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 9:14am: Two stroke engines do not stink, they sound funny. Joe. My two stroke 8V92 Detroit's stink and sound funny. However Black powder does not stink. It's Eau de Riflemen #5

	Sean
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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3982 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #18 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 7:52pm	Print Post
	Correct me if I'm wrong, but the two burn differently. Black powder emits the gasses which burn at the surface of the grain - more pressure gives less gasses coming out of the grain (perhaps a bit self-limiting, hence, good stable pressures). Smokeless burns in the grain - more pressure accelerates the rate of burn - hence, greater instability and potential for quickly rising pressures.

	Cat Whisperer (trk) Chief of Smoke Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army assra #9885
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Longdistance1 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 468 Location: Amidon, ND Joined: Feb 11^th, 2013	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #19 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 8:22pm	Print Post
	It's very hard to compare apple's to road apple's!!! Longdistance1


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 12275 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #20 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 8:51pm	Print Post
	So if I add smokeless gun powder to the gas in my four stroke XR600, it'll have the power of a two stroke? Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #21 - Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 11:32pm	Print Post
	Well, if you're going to pull the plugs, trickle some power in on top of the pistons, and cork the cylinders back up as an experiment, you might want to film it to put on you-tube.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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.22-5-40 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 826 Joined: Feb 13^th, 2010	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #22 - Mar 3^rd, 2015 at 12:02am	Print Post
	Back in the mid-1980's, I too heard about the use of magnum primers..so I did a test using a #4 30" Winchester High-Wall in .38-55. Used Goex 3FG, Leeth nose-pour copy of Lyman 375248..probably lubed with SPG..no wad under bullet. I used Fed. Mag. & std. Fed.L.R. primers. The std. clearly were more accurate no mattter how much I varied powder charges. Didn't Ned Roberts mention that in their muzzleloading match rifles, they always sought out the mildest caps for best accuracy?


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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2150 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #23 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 12:53am	Print Post
	SSShooter wrote on Mar 1^st, 2015 at 1:31pm: On the primers.................. many, if not most BP shooters have moved away from magnum primers as the feeling is they burn so hot they lead to incomplete combustion of the BP and a fair amount is thrown out of the barrel unburned. Whatever the exact mechanism, I find that standard LR primers work better then magnum in my 38-56 & 40-65. Glenn, Based on what I know, the current thinking is that hot primers push the BP powder column and bullet forward prior to full ignition of the powder, resulting in decreased accuracy. I currently get excellent accuracy in my .40-65 BPCR with Rem 2-1/2 large pistol primers with a thin 0.004” paper wad under the powder (covers the primer hole). BTW, I just worked up some loads with various thicknesses of under powder wads to determine if additional taming of primer power increases accuracy. The accuracy tests will be at 200 yds over a chrono with 10 shots each of zero to 0.060” under powder wads covering the primer hole. I’ve been assured by others that even a pistol primer will easily punch through a 0.060” Walters wad. We’ll see and I'll report the results here. Wayne

	NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2150 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #24 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 12:56am	Print Post
	texasmac wrote on Mar 5^th, 2015 at 12:53am: SSShooter wrote on Mar 1^st, 2015 at 1:31pm: On the primers.................. many, if not most BP shooters have moved away from magnum primers as the feeling is they burn so hot they lead to incomplete combustion of the BP and a fair amount is thrown out of the barrel unburned. Whatever the exact mechanism, I find that standard LR primers work better then magnum in my 38-56 & 40-65. Glenn, Based on what I know, the current thinking is that hot primers push the BP powder column and bullet forward prior to full ignition of the powder, resulting in decreased accuracy. I currently get excellent accuracy in my .40-65 BPCR with Rem 2-1/2 large pistol primers with a thin 0.004” paper wad under the powder (covers the primer hole). BTW, I just worked up some loads with various thicknesses of under powder wads to determine if additional taming of primer power increases accuracy. The accuracy tests will be at 200 yds over a chrono with 10 shots each using zero to 0.060” under powder wads covering the primer hole. I’ve been assured by others that even a pistol primer will easily punch through a 0.060” Walters wad. We’ll see and I'll report the results here. Wayne

	NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7725 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #25 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 6:29am	Print Post
	Seanmp wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 7:21pm: westerner wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2015 at 9:14am: Two stroke engines do not stink, they sound funny. Joe. My two stroke 8V92 Detroit's stink and sound funny. However Black powder does not stink. It's Eau de Riflemen #5 Pair of 8v Detroits make music not noise . Boats


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UtahDave Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 395 Location: Heber City, Utah Joined: Aug 14^th, 2010	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #26 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 10:06am	Print Post
	Wayne, I know you have huge experience but are you concerned that a heavy Walters under primer wad could stay in the barrel? Dave


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texasmac Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2150 Location: Central Texas Joined: Aug 16^th, 2004	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #27 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 11:48am	Print Post
	UtahDave wrote on Mar 5^th, 2015 at 10:06am: Wayne, I know you have huge experience but are you concerned that a heavy Walters under primer wad could stay in the barrel? Dave Dave, Excellent comment. I had considered that aspect of the test. I doubt a very lightweight paper wad, even .030" or .060" thick, would be a major bore obstruction if it remained, but it certainly is a concern and I will be checking the bore after each shot. BTW, I plan on attempting to find one or more of the Walter wads after firing, if possible, to inspect it. But that may be impossible due to the grass in front of the shooting stations. If I had thought more about this in advance I would have spray painted the wads a bright color but it's too late now as the loads are ready to go. Wayne

	NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2942 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #28 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 6:11pm	Print Post
	texasmac wrote on Mar 5^th, 2015 at 12:56am: I currently get excellent accuracy in my .40-65 BPCR with Rem 2-1/2 large pistol primers with a thin 0.004” paper wad under the powder (covers the primer hole). BTW, I just worked up some loads with various thicknesses of under powder wads to determine if additional taming of primer power increases accuracy. The accuracy tests will be at 200 yds over a chrono with 10 shots each using zero to 0.060” under powder wads covering the primer hole. I’ve been assured by others that even a pistol primer will easily punch through a 0.060” Walters wad. We’ll see and I'll report the results here. Wayne Yep. If the winter ever ends, LP primer vs. LR primer tests at 600yd are on the agenda for both rifles. Looking forward to your test results, as well.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Mick B Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1007 Location: 19 Ian Nicol St watson ACT aus Joined: Apr 11^th, 2013	Re: Comparing BP to smokeless Reply #29 - Mar 5^th, 2015 at 6:16pm	Print Post
	Hi Wayne. Firstly thanks for the tip on getting separated case parts out of my barrel, I will certainly try it if I'm unlucky enough to have the problem arise again. On the subject of recovering your under powder wads you may be able to erect a barrier of fly screen about 20 ft in front of your firing point and shoot through it. By the time the bullet goes through the fly wire the wad may be on a different path and caught in the screen. The only cost would be a square meter of screen and a couple of sticks to holt it upright in place. Regards. Mike.


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