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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Twist Rates (Read 20938 times)
JLouis
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #15 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:39am
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SSShooter
Think you've (Charlie Dell) got it. All the theory you want is great, but see what works on the target for the winners. In all disciplines. Heavy/long for caliber bullets through fast-twist barrels as fast as you can push them have been the winners for a while. Time marches on.

That does not hold true out here Glenn for serious 200yd. target work and I would put our top competitors against anyone in the Nation. May I ask how substantial your testing of fast twist and heavy bullets had been. What were your means and methods, how many 200yd. 10-shot groups were shot, please post the test targets and data for our review. Charlie Dell did not simply write about  theory in his book he shot thousands of bullets in his machine rest and provided us with his results. He did not rely on what a handful of winning competitors were using, it has nothing to do with serious testing. 

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #16 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 2:05am
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Now that's weird...  so match results aren't important, because they're just good shooters who happen to use something else - and presumably are able to make a non-optimal combination shoot better than other shooters using the ideal combination that shoots better anyway?    If the fast twist is detrimental to best accuracy,why would those top shooters be using it?  After all, they would want any and every edge possible.  I kinda find it hard to believe that they would intentionally handicap themselves and still be able to win.
The goal of serious testing is to be able to shoot better in serious competition.  it is not a goal in itself.  Better BC's and less wind drift do seem a relevant goal.
  
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boats
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #17 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 6:17am
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I believe match results are the true test of performance. I don't believe there is any data showing fast twist small bore cast bullet rifles win more matches than conventional twist.  Some yes more no.

45/90 has probably won 100 times more long range matches than any of the 38s.

Having said that I am glad experementers are looking for improvements. It's just something I don't want to invest time and money in. Largest potential gain is in human performance not twist rates.

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #18 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 6:43am
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Yes, and even there we see a tendency towards faster rifling twists - like 1 in 16.  Whereas in the old days 1 in 20 or 22 was considered good enough.   
There's different way to get to a same result, true.
Also - maybe the 45-90 has won lots more LR matches, but consider - it has also lost a lot more, if you look at the bottom of the score sheet...
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #19 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 7:38am
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To give one good CA example, there is a 25-20WCF shooter on this board that shoots the occasional 250 Wink with a long/heavy for caliber bullet in a fast-twist barrel. I do not recall him (or any other quarter-bore shooter) scoring a 250 with a <100gr bullet and traditional slow twist.

It has only been over the 'recent history' of cast bullet shooting that there have been serious efforts by folks to shoot the longer distances with smaller caliber (anything small than 45 or 44) rifles. Now that some effort and shooters have started to do so they are starting to climb the scoreboard, as with Rick Moritz recent win at the BPCR nationals. As we continue to gain more knowledge with these higher BC bullets I feel sure at some point the 40/38/35cal will be on an equal footing with the larger caliber bullets. Just like the 7mm and smaller calibers now dominate and own most all records out to 1000yd in high power shooting of all disciplines.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #20 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 8:33am
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In other words, if we we remain happy with the status quo, we'd still be shooting smoothbore matchlocks...  Sometimes one has to kick the holy cows.
  
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ClaMar
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #21 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 9:43am
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IMO, extrapolation of 200yd. results to long-range is invalid.  Those who advocate slow twists for long-range based on their 200 yd. results, have apparently never shot at longer ranges under twitchy conditions.  It is well-documented that excellent 200 yd. scores can be shot with marginal twist rates, even with bullets tipping, but that's certainly not the case at 600-1000 yds.

Gert has it right.

Clarence
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #22 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:13pm
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All good points but as Clarence says, you can't compare schuetzen with LR.  There are similarities but stability is measured to 200 yds. in Schuetzen and 1000 in LR.  The west coast & SW shooters have it over most of the rest of the country in that they can shoot so much longer in the season.  If somebody is shooting 250's with a fast twist .25, it's probably because he shoots every week and has made a study of it.  If somebody won a mid-range match with a fast twist 38-50, it was maybe due to less recoil or his ability to read conditions. (In other words, experience)  I looked over NRA scores from last summer.   In LR Nationals, only one person shot a .40 cal and that was a woman.  Nothing else smaller than a 44 and only one of those.  
If you look at scores from the past years, of both schuetzen and BPTR, you can take the top 6-8 names from each venue, and most of the time those names will always be at the top with just a few position changes whether they're using a fast twist or not. It's because the person knows his rifle and how to read conditions.  Bob
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:18pm by Old-Win »  
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SSShooter
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #23 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:21pm
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Old-Win wrote on Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:13pm:
I looked over NRA scores from last summer.   In LR Nationals, only one person shot a .40 cal and that was a woman.
Bob

Yes, and she set a couple of records and did quite well. Shooting a Hepburn, I might add.

The AZ Creedmoor match is in a couple of weeks. Will likely have more competitors then the NRA Nat'l did and will be interesting to see the results. Same with the Canadian Nat'l matches next August. That said, it is very tough to beat the "top-10" who are the perennial winners at the LR matches. Know your rifle, know your load & know yourself. I find it humorous that some of our national LR records are held by someone who only shoots LR "occasionally" as he prefers silhouettes and does not have time for both.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #24 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:54pm
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Agree long range is not Schuetzen.

So looking at the 2014 NRA Championship results. BPCartridge Rifle & BP Silhouette rifle,

Were were all the fast twist 38 shooters ? Not a half dozen 38's are listed in all the equipment surveys.

Boats
  
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SSShooter
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #25 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 12:56pm
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Check the iron sights winner for BPCR.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #26 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 1:05pm
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Top 10 each match Target and Cartridge Rifle Iron and Scope, 30 shooters total National Championships best shooters in the Country

One 38/50 All the rest 45's

Spend money for barrels and molds based on one guys results ?

Not Boats

  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #27 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 1:18pm
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Boats,

Look at it another way - how many people were shooting 38's?  How many scored well?
How many were shooting 44 or 45's?  How many ended tail end?
Yes, top end is 45's - tail end too...
Mind you, I also shoot 45's for LR - but typically, the mentality in the game is people buy what is successful - which means they won't try out something new.
Calculate the percentages - then maybe those 38's won't seem so bad after all.  The .38 percentile in the top 10 might even be higher than the .45 percentile!
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #28 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 2:44pm
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Au contraire, our Belgian friend.  There is a well known west coast shooter who has been pushing fast twist since I've been in the blackpowder game.  How many shooters jumped on his bandwagon and now have a bunch of safe queens that don't see the light of day?  Let's go over some of his ideas.  "The 32-40" can do everything, even to a 1000 yds".  Using a bullet 1/2 the length of a pencil  and water quenched.  How about this list? The 35-40, 35-55 for silhouette 38-70, 38-72, even the 40-82 for LR.  I have yet to see any of these fast twist hot rods win a large event.  The 38-50 and 40-50 have had some success at distances to 600 yds. but that's what they were designed to do in the beginning.  If you watch some of the for sale sites, there have been quite a few rifles, barrels, and bullet molds for sale that have been designed by this guy.  That tells me a lot.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Twist Rates
Reply #29 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 3:35pm
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Don't forget the fast-twist 45's which are doing pretty well - and judging by my rifles, there most certainly is no accuracy issue even at short range with a faster twist - maybe the contrary.  My most accurate .45 is the 1:16" twist one, which should theoretically overstabilize the bullet and reduce accuracy - but that's not what I see on target.  Even at short range.
And those succesful 38-50 and 40-50's at midrange aren't really the traditional slow-twist, light bullet ones.

Of course - and luckily - equipment is only part of the game - the 'nut behind' is the determining factor in the equation.
By I'll stand by my point: I remain convinced that a faster twist for a same calibre (within reason) will not cause accuracy issues just because it is faster.  It will give a shooter the added flexibilty to be able to use a wider range of bullets without giving up anything accuracy-wise.  Had this with my 45's, and also the 32-20 (cast bullets, BP).
You can even extend that reasoning to 'modern', jacketed bullet rifles.
  
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