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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1,000 yd 45/70 (Read 12217 times)
Hank45
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1,000 yd 45/70
Feb 13th, 2015 at 4:40am
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Will a 45/70 hit a 1,000 yd target accurately with black powder and what is the best bullet weight to do this? Thanks for your answer Hank
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 5:36am
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Been there, done that - you can make it work - and well.  Just use a 500+gr bullet (520 - 530 money style) with tapered driving bands to maximize powder capacity (think a Buffalo arms mould).  That way you can get 70-80grs of powder in the case, which should be more than good enough.
  
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Hank45
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 5:55am
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MartiniBelgian, how much would compress that load? Thanks for your answer Hank45
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #3 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 7:02am
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My own view would be to go to a 45/90 with a PP smooth sided bullet. It wouldn't have as much as much of a rainbow trajectory as the 45/70. Grooved bullets cause aerodynamic drag which slows them down faster than smooth sided bullets at long range. For lubrication a grease cookie between two card discs below the bullet is the standard way of lubing a PP bullet.
A long 3 to 4 foot drop tube will settle a powder charge better than compressing it, the longer the tube the better the powder settlement. In most cases in long range shooting a PP bullet is seated no more than 1/4" into the case. Those Long Range shooters who compete and do better in such competitions use a 45/90, it has more oomph, than the lighter charged 45/70.

In the end it's a case of what can your shoulder stand in the way of recoil. A 45/70 round will get to a 1000 yards but it's moving like a geriatric at the end of a Marathon Road Race when it gets there. The 45/90 has more authority at the far end of the range. That's just my opinion of course, YMMV. Roll Eyes

Harry
  
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SSShooter
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #4 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 7:32am
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At the BPTR Creedmoor Nationals last year there were 19 folks shooting a 45-90, 7 with 45-100 and 3 with 45-70s as well as a smattering of others, but none less than 44cal. Money bullets dominated. While the 45-70 can get there, most folks opt for more oomph. I'll be shooting a 40-65 at the two 1000yd matches we will have in the east (Reade Range, PA & Quantico, VA) this year. But, if these matches continue I'll likely get something like a 44-77.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2015 at 7:46am by SSShooter »  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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KAF
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #5 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 7:39am
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Bore riding bullet, step down basically. 556 gr bullet.

Able to load as a 45-90, works very well.

Bullet is not seated all the way down in the case, no need to, the step down keeps the bullet straight with the bore.

  
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pdshooter
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #6 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 7:48am
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Another way to get more velocity without having to buy another rifle and acquire more expensive brass is to either load with Goex 3F express if you can find it or load 10% 4759 or 4227 if it's allowed. Much cleaner burning and can exceed 45-90 velocities. Another consideration of upping your powder charges using a 45-90 is that recoil is based on ejected weight so more powder is more recoil.
  
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nuclearcricket
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #7 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 8:04am
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The money bullet at about 535 gr seems to be the bullet of choice. If you get one with the first one or 2 driving bands reduced you should be able to get close to 70 gr of powder in your case, maybe a bit more. I think that last years 1000 yd match at Read Range was won by a 45-70. 
Sam
  
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harry_eales
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #8 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 8:49am
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Quote:
Another way to get more velocity without having to buy another rifle and acquire more expensive brass is to either load with Goex 3F express if you can find it or load 10% 4759 or 4227 if it's allowed. Much cleaner burning and can exceed 45-90 velocities. Another consideration of upping your powder charges using a 45-90 is that recoil is based on ejected weight so more powder is more recoil.


I think you'll find that in BP Matches at Long Range that duplex loads are just not permitted. They may burn slightly cleaner but in traditional BP only matches it's looked on as cheating. 

The range officials may permit you to shoot, out of the goodness of their heart, if the entrants were low in number, but you would certainly be inadmissible to appear on the score sheets or win any prize. In any competition, it pays to read the rules first, before you commit yourself to perhaps entry fees, hotel, food and travel bills. Cry

Harry.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #9 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 9:36am
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HANK:
   The old-timers quickly went to cartridges that gave more velocity for their LR shooting.   IMHO, this was owing to vertical stringing from velocity dispersion.   They had no satisfactory way of measuring the velocity dispersion, so could not refine their loading techniques to minimize it.   The vertical stringing depends approximately inversely on the square of the velocity dispersion, so even a 10% increase in velocity would show about a 20% decrease in vertical dispersion.   
    It follows from this that since we can measure velocity dispersion (expressed as SD or ES) quite readily, that this provides a valuable tool for load development.   If you can get the velocity SD down into low single digits, you don't have to worry much about the vertical stringing.  AND you will be getting less wind drift than the HV guys.   Study the ballistics tables.
    A fly in all this ointment is that many ranges have specifications for minimum performance for LR cartridges, because they worry about bullets coming into the targets at too steep an angle.   Make sure that your bullet weight and velocity come up to the performance specifications required at the event you contemplate entering.

CHRIS
RGChristensen

  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #10 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 10:28am
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Compression is just a factor of the amount of powder - I would just aim at the best-shooting highest MV load you can find.  1150-1200 should be possible.  Bullet seated hard into the rifling, so that together with the powder charge it will determine your compression.  You cannot change compression without changing seating depth or powder charge.  And for me, seating depth is not a variable - hard into the rifling is what works beest for me.
  
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #11 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 10:57am
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Quote:
Another way to get more velocity without having to buy another rifle and acquire more expensive brass is to either load with Goex 3F express if you can find it or load 10% 4759 or 4227 if it's allowed.


I think you'll find that in BP Matches at Long Range that duplex loads are just not permitted. They may burn slightly cleaner but in traditional BP only matches it's looked on as cheating. 

Harry.

Duplex loads from the NRA BPTR rules (both mid-range & long-range).
3.17 Ammunition - Ammunition may be fixed, breech seated or muzzle loaded. Only commercially manufactured sporting grade black powder or Pyrodex may be used for the entire powder charge in muzzle loading rifles. Breech-loaded ammunition only may be made of black powder or Pyrodex or a combination of black powder and up to 20% smokeless powder by weight. WHRSA requires the use of black powder only.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #12 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:03am
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Along with a Money bullet with the first 2 bands at reduced diameter to allow you to seat it out further, you can use Swiss 3Fg powder.  A friend does that and it gets him into the 1275 fps range with a .45-70, IIRC.  And that should be perfectly adequate for 1000 yds.

Clarence
  
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Hank45
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #13 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:08am
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Is breech seating allowed in 1,000 yd  shooting and is there a time restriction? Thanks for your answer, Hank45
  
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boats
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Re: 1,000 yd 45/70
Reply #14 - Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:44am
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Hank

On the other side, minimum required. I shot a couple matches with my Cadet model Trapdoor at 1000 yards using the Arsenal Carbine load, 405 gr bullet and a case full of 2 F black. 

It holds the 1000 yard target if conditions are good.   Not a match winning combination.

Boats
  
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