I am a rangemaster at our club and I am reasonably familiar with basic range safety procedures.  In May 2011, I was on Oahu, parked at a tourist attraction on the ocean side of the road, just opposite the range. Parking lots on both sides of the road.  I had a look at the range in question.  My first thought was OMG! It looked to me as if there were people hiking on the side of the mountain being used as a backstop.

waterman wrote on Feb 12^th, 2015 at 2:38am:


Definitely some high risk activities out there. After researching these issues in the news available on the web in the last 2 or three years, i can't believe the antis haven't picked up on this.  Most facilities ban tracers.  I am beginning to think they should be required so everyone could see what is happening. 

look at this picture (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

That is what the studies show happen with improper hits that are not contained in a vertical back stop. 

Gentlemen,
I've been a lawyer for almost 40 years, and I have considerable experience representing ranges.   
A few facts you need to know:
In most states firearms are inherently dangerous instrumentalities--the user is strictly liable for mishaps, and the injured party does not have to prove negligence.  One consequence is that if a round leaves your range, you are responsible, even if the range has been there years before the housing project downrange from your backstop. 
The N our A is useless if you get sued.  Their legal staff spends all its time trying to get folks to leave their property to them when they die.  I do not think  the legal staff ever has reviewed the range
manual.  I haven't reviewed it lately, but a few years ago a smart lawyer could have it to put us out of business.
If you get sued you likely will need expert witness testimony.  It will be very expensive.  The N our R staff will not be able to help--They spend too much
paying Wayne's million a year salary.
You will have  trouble finding a lawyer with any understanding of firearms safety issues.

I could go on, but the point is that unless your range makes a very serious effort to address problems before the arise, you may one day find a row of houses where your 100 yd berm used to be.
Steve K    

Thanks loophole,  That is pretty much how I expected liability to shake out without ever having talked to an attorney about it.  

I find it quite disturbing when I talk to people about the  loss issue with the response being “How will they prove it came from here?”  Shouldn’t we, as responsible citizens, be concerned with losses from the site simply to prevent injuries? Searching the web, I found 2 women hit in the head, 2 pregnant women hit, 1 woman hit in the leg,  2 men hit in the head, 1 man hit in the back who won $1 million settlement, and 2 men hit working on houses all within the last 3 or 4 years. Some facilities were closed for improvement and some permanently.  

After searching for as much data a possible on about 50 complaints, most in the last 3 to 5 years, a noticeably predictable pattern begins to emerge thanks to Goggle Earth with its close up view and precise measurement capabilities. The most dangerous areas seem to be 200 to 600 yards off to the sides at a 30 to 60 degree angle and 1 to 1.5 miles straight ahead.  This may not stand up for conviction, but the preponderance of the evidence shows proper containment is becoming more critical to as the encroachments advance.   Nearly all of the potentially offending sites do not have baffles and show signs of poor retention practices. 

One facility in NY was suspected of losses to a new development a mile away over a 300 foot high hill.  Directly fired up & over should have landed at least 2.5 miles out. Just for curiosity, I Goggled other facilities in the area to see their “blame” potential.  Most were only clay bird facilities.  One did not have any loss control measures and at high risk, IMO, but all encroachment is just outside the areas defined in the previous paragraph. 

Locally, I see the changing demographics from precision long range work to the short range tactical, high volume wall of lead activities making the risk of closures exponentially higher.

Jeff,
The problem with burying your head in the sand is that your arse is exposed to anyone who wants to kick it.
Steve K

QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 9:25am:


From all the reports and looking at the locations on Goggle maps, ect, I tend to believe most of the incidents are rifle related due to the ballistics involved.  The initial 4# hand full  of projectiles displayed by the fellow in WA, most look to be rifle he said he picked up off his property over the last 20 +/- years.  Some of them were lead and CB matches are fired there monthly. 

Of the incidents that are probably pistol related, they seem to pop up short range.  That happened here locally. 

I can say from testing velocity and stability of the exit for 4" wooden baffle material, the performance of lead and FMJ were nearly identical.  Zip through shedding a mere 200 fps 

loophole wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 12:34pm:


I believe a major factor is the increasing encroachment in addition to the web.  Stories that would have remained local are now accessible to everyone.  

I know of many undeniable instances that have never generated a complaint.  I was a bit surprised to find as many injuries as I did. I did forget to mention a guy getting hit in the chest on a golf course.  All of these incidents are in the same location pattern.  

Of the 50 or so I looked at in as much detail as the reports allowed, I excluded any that did not have evidence within 1.5 miles. No noise cry babies.

What really spurred me into this was a fellow in TX that lost his suit for $1 million.    His primary defense was he built a new facility exceeding N are A specs.  From the news footage it was obvious that it would not contain the projectiles based on the info I learned from the Penn State and FBI studies.  It is only a matter of time until the gold standard is shown to be woefully inadequate.  Then, who writes the new standard that does contain the projectiles?  Will it be so prohibitively expensive no one can afford to continue?  Would it not be more prudent to contain all projectiles in a good solid vertical stop or trap immediately behind the target than to depend on the general topography of the area?

Schuetzenmiester wrote on Feb 20^th, 2015 at 2:08pm:


Bob,

We had one fool, file suit because he got within a few feet of a metal pistol swinger and got hit (no wound) with HIS Ric. 

Our ins was cancelled and the rnge was closed 2 mo. We got re-ins by NRA though, that allowed us to reopen.

It used to be run on a "honor" system with one RM but, now we have 2 to 3 RM and you have to sign in and sign a waiver each time you go.

You can probably Google it using White City, R closer (that's where it accually is) or Medford.

Frank