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bohemianway
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30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Jan 24th, 2015 at 11:50pm
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Seems to me that this would be part way between 32-40 and the 28s. It is within the period and the only drawback is that it has even larger case capacity than the 32-40. Just wondering why this is not common considering that brass is common and molds are everywhere.

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Charles
  
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waterman
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #1 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 3:32am
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Schuetzen rifles tend to be single-purpose rifles.  I have a Uberti High Wall in 30-40, and a Martini-Enfield in .303 British and I have messed about with an Olympic-type Martini in .30-06.  All 3 will shoot plain based lead alloy bullets accurately enough to be used as Schuetzen rifles. But the Uberti is a reproduction of a 19th Century hunting rifle and the M-E is a military rifle.  Schuetzens they ain't. The .30-06 Martini is set up for offhand shooting and has all the Schuetzen bells & whistles, but it is just too darned heavy.

If you persevere, cases are not all that hard to come by, even if you are just starting out. 50 or 60 should last for a long time.  I prefer (above all) the 28-30 Stevens and then the 32-40.  For me, the 8.15x46R runs a distant 3rd.  I have not had enough luck with the .25s to look upon them with much glee.  Some of it is tradition, more important to some people than to others.  Some of it is perceived recoil.   

All we are doing is punching holes in paper at 200 yards or 40 rods, but with as much accuracy and uniformity as we can muster.  Bullet velocities are in the 1400 fps range, maybe a bit faster and maybe a bit slower.  It does not take much of a powder charge to achieve that.  What is important is shot-to-shot uniformity.  Smaller cases, and especially (to me) straight-walled cases position the small powder charges more uniformly than do the larger cases, and the small powder charges also occupy relatively more of the volume of the smaller cases.  Look at the "modern" cases used with "modern" single shots for Schuetzen competition.  The 32 Miller and the 30-20 are examples.  Both have relatively limited powder capacity.

If you have a single shot chambered for 30-40 Krag and are considering Schuetzen, perhaps you might get some cartridge cases from RMC that are solid brass & have only a bore-sized powder space.  Those, along with breech-seating should make a 30-40 very competitive.
  
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:04am
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Jumping on Watermans good advice,

My theory is chose the bullet first then figure the velocity it needs to give desired results on target. If 30 caliber and paper targets at 200 yards powder capacity  30/40 is a lot more than needed.

If not a proven Schuetzen cartridge and wanting a 30 caliber Well set up 30/30 would probably be a better choice than 30/40.   

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #3 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 11:19am
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the internal ballistic dynamics of "straight walled" (or very slightly tapered cases are different from those of bottle necked cases.  while bottle necked cases are capable of excellent accuracy the american schuetzen technique involving breach seating simply seems to work better especially in the leisurely paced match routine we enjoy.

If you are talking about offhand shooting, with and/or "fixed" ammunition, different strategies can come into play, and fixed ammo-30-40 rounds might fare well.  I can also recommend the use of custom cases that use a thick-walled internally straight walled powder chamber.  they will reduce capacity and makes shooting them in our ASSRA-schuetzen manner a lot easier---and possibly more accurate to boot.  I have had such cases made for a non-standard (approximately) 11mm BN Mauser stalking rifle and also 220 Swift cases to turn them into a sort of extra-long 22 hornet for cast bullet use.    the custom made cases were no more expensive that trying to find some of the other oddball no-longer produced cases.

   As euro-schuetzen sport evolved into International Free-Rifle Competition, rifles that were basically identical to Schuetzen rifles continued to be used, but strengthened and improved to handle 20th century military match ammo-----bottle necked high velocity jacketed-bullet stuff  (I have a swiss martini of that type and era in the modern 7.5x55 military ammo)  They can shoot very well with cast bullet loads (as can 30-06 Springfields) but they will never most-likely be winning bench rest rifles.
  

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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #4 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 12:53pm
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Now I will get to the real point. Over the years I have seen a great deal of interest at matches with newcomers that has turned them away due to the high cost of entry (equipment). I see the Uberti 1885 DST available in 30-40. So, I think to myself, why not use this as a basis for an entry level Scheutzen? Add a hook to the buttplate, Iron sights, D&T for scope, palm rest, and get a hand full of custom thickwall cases and your off to the races for about $2,000 (1200+25+500+125+50). This is half the price of anything else and should be competitive with all but the top 10%.  Just a thought (BTW I am going to do the experiment with this configuration in the 38-55 available as soon as it arrives).

Charles
  
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #5 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 2:45pm
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The 30/40 can be made to shoot competitively. I have one in a HW with a 12 twist, A&M heavy barrel.

The standard case can give good accuracy, I think with 14.0 gr 4227, I could get 3/4" groups at 100.

I machined 2 cases for it, one with a 1/4" hole back to the primer pocket (1.9cc capacity) with .312 in the neck area to be able to seal the chamber and the other with a straight .312 hole back to the primer (2.8cc).

Both where successful and loading BSed but, I got my single smallest group from the 2.8cc case and that's just a little smaller than the 30/30. Pictured is the 2.8cc best group. As I remember the group size is .318.

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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #6 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 4:18pm
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Shooting with low cost of entry T/ C. Contender rifle stocked in a short case 32 is likely to out perform all others.  Fellow at Columbia Schuetzen years ago cleaned up bench rest with one. If more traditional one of the Mikoru Browning high walls is a good choice.  Just saw one in 38/55 for sale 1500 dollars.  They made a few 32/40's too

I like 30/40's a lot won a few CBA postals with my Kraig Carbine, not my choice for a Schuetzen though.

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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #7 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:24pm
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In looking at Uberti's web site, I only see their 1885 offered in various .45 caliber cartridges. Will a beginner have to hunt down a used rifle to get started if he chose a .30-40 caliber? The only place I see with new stock is Buffalo Arms. Or is BA the only source of this caliber?
  

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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #8 - Jan 26th, 2015 at 7:05am
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Cimarron Arms has a multitude of calibers including .30-40 for the Uberti High Wall. Straight grip, pistol grip, single trigger, double trigger. Take your pick.
Bill
  
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Kurt_701
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #9 - Jan 26th, 2015 at 8:00am
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This is my 3040 Krag.  Target not great.
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Re: 30-40 Krag for Schuetzen?
Reply #10 - Jan 26th, 2015 at 8:44am
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There is no doubt that the 30-40 can be made to shoot accurately. The down side is that the case has a lot of boiler room, which will leave a lot of empty space when shooting in the b1400 to 1500 FPS range. Still it can be done. 
  I think the biggest reason that you don’t see the 30-40 more is tradition. When the 30-40 was adopted the NRA backed its use in the civilian marksmanship program. This formed a rift between the German-American traditional Schuetzen clubs and NRA. Many Schuetzen shooters of the day never forgave Dr. Hudson when he gave up traditional offhand for military shooting. This is also where digs like “Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man.” Comes from. Schuetzen shooters derisively called military shooters “belly crawlers” and the military shooters called the Schuetzen shooters square heads and drunken Dutchmen. This finally came to a head during WWI anti German sentiment broke up most of the German bunds and the Schuetzen vereins that were part of German-American life for half a century. Many of the parks and shooting ranges were converted into municipal parks when the German-American clubs fell apart. Other more rural ranges were gleefully converted into military ranges by the NRA “for the war effort”. The bottom line was that in most parts of the country traditional shooting was dead and the NRA and military shooting took over. To the traditional shooters mind this all started with the 30-40. 

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