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JS47
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Case Buckling
Jan 23rd, 2015 at 7:16pm
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I'm shooting a 38-55 using WW cases, 17 grains IMR 4227, kapok wad slightly ahead of the powder and a 260 grain tapered bullet breech seated.  After the 3rd firing on the cases today 16 out of 20 showed signs of buckling near the case mouth.  I re-read what Charlie Dell had to say about it and he didn't come to any definite conclusions as to what to do other than that some one had bell mouthed the cases, which helped somewhat.  I've thought of full length sizing the cases to smooth them out and then making a larger diameter expander to get a tight fit in the chamber.  Have any of you had this problem and solved it?

Thanks
JS
  
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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #1 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 7:24pm
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Anealing the mouths will probably solve the problem.
  

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wader4
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #2 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 8:01pm
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I just went thru the same thing hear. 38-55 with brand new winchester brass, 16.5 grains of 4227 with a 310 grain bullet. Some brass were without a mark and a few had started to get ugly. Still scratching my head. Someone told me to bell the mouth out more so it drags when it goes into the chamber. I haven't got around to trying that yet. 
Wade
  
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wader4
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #3 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 8:02pm
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Breech seating the bullets also.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #4 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 8:12pm
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Quote:
Someone told me to bell the mouth out more so it drags when it goes into the chamber.


Like Jeff said, anneal the case mouth. The problem is, that chamber pressure gets behind the case mouth and that's what colapses it. It can happen to the 32/40, also. 

I keep a tapered tool in my tool box for that purpose. You can make one with just a drill press and a file. I think Quarter Bore sells one, ready made, with steps for caliber but, all you need is a straight taper going from your smallest cal to the largest one over about a 3/4" length.

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bpjack
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #5 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 9:07pm
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I have been having blow back issues with the sloppy chamber in my Ballard so I annealed a few cases and flared the case mouths every shot at my last outing on Monday.  It made a big difference.  I had made the tool shown below on the left from some plumbing parts which worked fine if the case was annealed.  I just finished a new variation on my crude but affective de-capping tool that will flare and de-cap all at the same time.  The flared section is adjustable.  Should do the job in one operation.

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JLouis
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #6 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 9:14pm
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I have found and proven to myself that improper bullet seating depth can be the contributing factor.
  

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JS47
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #7 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 9:21pm
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JLouis wrote on Jan 23rd, 2015 at 9:14pm:
I have found and proven to myself that improper bullet seating depth can be the contributing factor.


JLouis,

Could you elaborate on this a bit?  I'm seating the bullets so that the throat just shows on the front of the base band.  I thought I would try seating them a little deeper tomorrow.  Does case length have an effect?

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JS
  
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JLouis
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #8 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 9:58pm
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JS PM Sent.
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #9 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 10:29pm
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  The cause of this is the same sort of pressure wave that causes chamber ringing.   The high pressure wave reflects off the base of the bullet and on its way back, high pressure gas gets between the case mouth and the chamber.
   It can best be prevented by not constraining the powder charge into a symmetrical mass.   If you restrain the powder with a wad, leave it a little ahead of the powder charge and there will generally be no problem.
    The reason that lightly expanding the case mouth works is that it prevents the reflected pressure wave from forcing gas between the case mouth and the chamber.  Doesn't take much, just slightly bell the mouth so that it drags when chambering the round.  This usually has to be done for each shot.

CHRIS
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #10 - Jan 23rd, 2015 at 11:39pm
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I stopped the buckling of breech seated .32 RKS cases by:

1. annealing the case mouth
2. belling the case mouth
3. using thick wad in mouth

I use wads cut from 3/4 inch water pipe insulation.
It compresses and seals the mouth of the case until pressure swells the case mouth for a tighter seal in the chamber.
This prevents gas pressure going backwards around the case mouth which causes the buckling.

Picture of my belling tool attached.
  
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #11 - Jan 24th, 2015 at 8:54am
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Years ago I had a 38-55 that would pucker case mouths every shot. I made up a tool to bell the case mouth and it worked. As I was reloading at a match Charlie Dell asked why I was belling the case mouth. I told him and he suggested that I put a wad at the mouth and turn the case so the powder was oriented to the mouth of the case then put it in the rifle and fire. He told me I would probably have to up my charge a little to get back to the proper velocity. I tried it and it worked no more puckered case mouths. When I got home I ran the loads over the chronograph and had to up my charge 2 10ths of a grain to get back to the right velocity with 4227. 
  It is useful to note that Charley when doing his testing on chamber ringing and after ALWAYS seated the wad .050” off the powder then tipped the case down and then put the case in the chamber. He was a bear about this one thing and would ask over and over if we tipped the case to the front before loading.

40 Rod
  
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JS47
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #12 - Jan 25th, 2015 at 9:59pm
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Thanks to all for the suggestions.  I annealed the cases and bell mouthed them.  No more buckling and all the dents from previous firings smoothed right out.  If you added it all up, there must be several centuries worth of knowledge and experience on this forum.

JS
  
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Re: Case Buckling
Reply #13 - Jan 29th, 2015 at 7:55pm
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I had the same problems with .38-55 cases of various makes. Problem was solved when I changed the powder
to AA No. 9 after I had tried annealing, belling out case mouth with no success.
Pete
  
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