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Normal Topic Paper-patch bore wear in originals? (Read 5675 times)
.22-5-40
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Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Dec 8th, 2014 at 11:34pm
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I know this has been re-hashed in past..but what are your opinions of any if at all bore wear in shooting paper-patch in an original .40 Ballard?  My only experience with p.p. is with the .22 Hornet & .222 Rem.  The Hornet has a C.M. Shillen brl. that I paid extra for hand-lapping.  I spent 1 1/2 shooting seasons shooting nothing but p.p. bullets thru this rifle..I can tell by the shine and ease of cleaning that this bore is alot smoother now.  I doubt with my time restraints I would even fire close to 200 rounds a year if that much thru the original...and this would probably be with Swiss 1 1/2.  Is bore wear from patched bullets a concern in the old soft steel?
  
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rustyrelx
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #1 - Dec 9th, 2014 at 4:05pm
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make sure you lube the patch before you shoot it
   Don
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #2 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 1:51am
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I'm afraid I must disagree with Don, in my opinion a paper patch should never be lubed. The idea is that the patch on exiting the barrel is shed immediately so as not to cause possible irregularities in flight, and anything that may cause the patch to stay on the bullet should be avoided at all costs. During the 60's, 70's and 80's I did a considerable amount of BP shooting with rifles ranging from .577/450 up to .577 BP Express. All my bullets were PP and none of the patches were lubricated after experiments by myself and like minded individuals at my gun club proved to us at least, that lubing the patch caused flyers even at 100 yards never mind at longer distances. At the end of shooting we would repair to the backstops and dig out  as many bullets as we could find to examine them and it was surprising just how many had the patches wholly or partially attached.

Bullet design is important, I have seen GG bullets with the grooves either lubed or unlubed used with paper patches, they were not very successful at all. If you are going to shoot PP bullets then you require a bullet specifically made for the job. I.e. bore dia., and smooth sides with no grooves. 

Also the rifling has to be correct especially for long range shooting. The Sharps Rifle Company for instance made their target rifles with grooves only 2 to 3 thousandths of an inch deep whilst their general use rifles were rifled to a depth of 5 to 6 thousandths of an inch. The same company advocated the use of lubrication cookies beneath the bullet. These consisted of a card disc a lube cookie and another card disc, the idea being to keep the grease away from the PP bullet.

In over fifty and more years of shooting I have examined hundreds of PP bullets from various manufacturer's and countries. Only once have I come across a bullet with any form of lubrication and that appeared to be a wax coating applied to the patch. I've never seen a commercial 
PP bullet with a twisted paper tail on it either.

Harry.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #3 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 4:25am
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My experiences:  I doubt if you could shoot enough PP bulelts through a barrel to cause wear - it will put a nice polish in the bore, yes.  But wear?  GG bullet with some dust/grit/sand contamination will be MUCH worse.  My shooting is in old BP military rifles with soft steel barrels.
I'll agree with Harry about dry patches - I never lube my patches either, bore-dia. bullet, patched to groove dia.  Howver, quite a bit of military ammo was lubed (well, if beeswax or similar is a lube...)
However, IME rifling depth just doesn't matter - but narrow lands and wide grooves will help.
But to come back to your main point - just shoot it as much as you like, nothing bad will happen.  And getting a polish to the bore would be a good thing indeed.   
Think about it - you can cut yourself with the sharp edge of a sheet of paper - but with the flat side, you can try whatever you want, no cutting...
  
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rustyrelx
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #4 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 1:09pm
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Harry: Is not the wax coating you found a lube? I have examined many loaded pp cartridges ans most seem to have that wax/lube coating....
   Don
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 3:17pm
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rustyrelx wrote on Dec 12th, 2014 at 1:09pm:
Harry: Is not the wax coating you found a lube? I have examined many loaded pp cartridges ans most seem to have that wax/lube coating....
   Don


Don,
I'm assuming it was wax, but after a century or more it was my best guess. I was a European round rather than a British one.

I ran out of allotted space in my previous post but as to wear of the rifling using PP bullets I think the main fault here may lie with the type of paper used, a lot of old paper was coated with a very fine white clay, presumably so any ink applied didn't run or smudge. I always tried to get a hold of hand made paper, more expensive, admittedly, but I didn't get barrel wear during 30 years of shooting BP, using PP bullets.

Hand made paper isn't quite as consistent in thickness as machine made, but it was near enough, any sheet too thick was given to my sister who was an artist. It's still made here in England, but what I costs nowadays I have no idea and the old artisan who made mine went to his rest years ago.

Harry
  
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George Babits
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #6 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 9:32pm
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There are some interesting things that can be done by different types of paper.  Many years ago Bill Ballard in Billings, Montana, told me that one of the best ways to lap a bore was to use bullets patched with draftsman type tracing paper.  That stuff is slightly abrasive and will polish your bore very nicely.  As I recall I was working with a pitted 50-90 barrel on a Sharps at the time and he had made me up some brass.

George
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frnkeore
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #7 - Dec 12th, 2014 at 9:47pm
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I used to shoot slug guns, they all used lubricated (Sperm oil) cross paper patches. I didn't shoot near as much as the dedicated slug gunners (SS where always first with me) but, Most of the guys would send their barrels back to Ken Briesen to have them recut about every 3 years as I remember. The actual time was when they wore enough that they wouldn't get the accuracy that they needed. We shot about 35 shots a match plus sighters, 9 months of the year and then some practice sessons and that varied a lot between shooters.

If it's a old original rifle and I owned it, I would probally restrict it to about 100 or so rounds total.

Frank
  

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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #8 - Dec 14th, 2014 at 1:03am
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Tried that one too in the beginning - lapping a bore shooting PP bullets.  Failed miserably, the bore stayed as rough as it had been, just tore the paper to shreds and caused a lot of leading.
I finally had to use fire lapping to get the bore smooth enough to shoot PP.
What PP will do is remove lots of fouling from your barrel (residual leading,...), anything above the bore surface as long as it is not too rough/hard.- which is good IMO.  And which explains the shine.

This from someone who actually shoots the things....
  
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Mick B
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Re: Paper-patch bore wear in originals?
Reply #9 - Dec 14th, 2014 at 7:25pm
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Just a couple of thoughts, the only rifle I have examined closely is a friends original Rigby M/L target rifle. the rifling is very shallow, possibly less than .002". Whether it got this way from shooting or was made that way I have no way of telling. But the load data inside the rifle case lists the load as 90 gr of Curtis & Harvey's #6  powder and a PP bullet of 550 gr.
As some paper is abrasive and the barrels were of softer metal than that which is used in modern B/L rifles a combination of soft steel, plus heavy use, could help explain the reputation earned by PP bullets in the past.
I heard that Harry Pope once said that 5000 rounds of PP bullets would take off the gilt edged accuracy of one of his barrels, but you couldn't live long enough to do it with grease groove bullets.
Finally on the subject of wax dipping PP bullets after loading, this was on some military loads and was probably more for water proofing the load than lubricating the bore during shooting. A lubricating disc was usually used to achieve this result. M/L barrels are still made from soft steel as it machines easier, M/L rifles get bore wear from shooting the patched ball and that is a fact.
Mike.
PS. My idea of accuracy and Harrys may be different.
  
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