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Schuetzenmiester
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Lowest 22 RF Temp
Nov 4th, 2014 at 1:08am
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Is there any consensus on lowest temp below which  22 rf accuracy begins to deteriorate?
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #1 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 2:13am
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For me, it's anything below 100F, I don't shoot at higher temps Smiley

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waterman
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #2 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 3:04am
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A few years back, I found a Biathlon Competitors Forum where that was discussed in detail.  Mostly they yakked about skis, poles, wax, courses, etc., but sometimes yakked about rifles & ammo.  Seems to be a function of both altitude & temperature.  One competitor zeroed his rifle with something like Eley Club in Auburn, CA.  He then went to a competition somewhere in Colorado (in winter) and could not get his rifle to hold a zero.  Another competitor supplied some Biathlon ammo and all was well.

At the same time, we had a similar discussion here.  The Canadian contingent reported that the Biathlon ammo worked better than the other stuff in the winter.
  
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #3 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 8:14am
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What do you think causes the difference?
The wax/lube, the lead composition, the powder used, the primer mixture, or a combination of all these things???
I have noticed a significant difference in RWS ammo out of a Springfield 1922, when temps go to extremes.
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #4 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 9:20am
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I have long suspected that barrel temp and the residual lube film inside the barrel have a critical impact.   When it is warmer ambient  the lube film is softer and the bullet slips through with less resistance/velocity loss.   Shooting 100 and 200 yard bench rest with a 22rf,  a cold barrel first shot typically drops low and left, with my heavy barreled rifles as much as a foot or more.
As the barrel warms up the ammo returns to the pervious zero.  An a cool (60 degree) morning the first relay sitting shots require 4 or 5 to get back on the mark.
{ I've always wanted some sort of method for measuring barrel temp shift as I shoot to see if this is all my imagination} 
Barrel mass and resistant to temp change is a big factor as well.  My heavy barrel 22 rf Ruger bench rifle can take a bunch of ammo to get to working temp.  My CCJohnson Martini with a much smaller di. barrel warms up a lot quicker.
  In hot weather,  a 15-20 min cool down between relays usually only requires a shot or two, depending on barrel mass,  to return to zero.  When the ambient temps are below 50 or so it requires more shots.  Sometimes at the Spring 22 shoot (or at the our last Fall match Sad) when temps may be in the high 30s or low 40s it can require 1 dozen or more shots--even if I plug the barrel at both ends between relays.

I strongly suspect that in addition to special low-drag-when-cold lubes than may not build up much of a residual film, Biathlon ammo has a powder/primer blend that is more stabile in low temps.   It may be that biathlon rifles never really warm up so that most shots are "cold barrel" shots or they have learned a hold-over pattern that allows them adjust point of aim with each shot.

I think we could learn a lot from the Biathlon shooters  I'd like to know more about that site.
« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2014 at 9:31am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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rgchristensen
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #5 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 10:07am
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    The late Buddy Streat was the best 22RF benchrest shooter I ever knew or  heard of, and he always had an assortment of ammo in his car, choosing the ammo and rifle most suitable for whatever the temperature was.  Buddy used to shoot with us at the old Fairfax R&G range, and 3 years in a row shot under 1" group at 200 yd.

CHRIS
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waterman
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #6 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 10:20am
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I can envision a test wherein we tape a series of thermocouples to rifle barrels and modify an old but still working freezer or fridge as a test chamber.

I tried our search function, but only came up with this thread.  Maybe the Canadian contingent can remember.  Maybe in 2010?

I did not save the link to the biathlon forum.



« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2014 at 10:27am by waterman »  
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #7 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 11:25am
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Give this a read ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #8 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 4:27pm
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It's not barrel temps guys, it's lube distribution. Most ammo begins to have issues to some degree once things drop much below 50deg. The principle reason is that at some point, lube hardens up and will not properly distribute in the bore.
It has largely been shown that a major element of shot to shot accuracy in a .22 is the ability to keep a consitstant layer of nice lean bullet lube in the bore.
  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #9 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 6:46pm
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The Alberta Schuetzen Guild has had 100 shot rimfire matches in the winter. We have shot rimfire down to -40 degrees. 
Virtually all rimfire ammo goes south below freezing temperatures however the biathalon ammo has a lube that works very well below freezing.

I have had excellent success with Lapua Biathalon even at -40 degrees.

Some shooters wiped the lube off their rimfire ammo and applied 50/50 moly grease to them. These bullets worked better at below freezing temperatures.
  
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #10 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 7:54pm
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Sure, I would imagine that would be the purpose built exception with lube designed for extreme temperature performance.
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #11 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 8:20pm
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tim,   barrel temps, as impacted by both ambient temp AND warming up by firing will affect lube distribution and lube viscosity.
I remain convinced that at the relatively low velocities--specifically of 22 rimfire ammo--it has a big impact on bullet impact placement.
I don't remember the name of that 22 guru (Kelby???) from southern IN who wrote regularly for Precision Shooting. But I recall him writing at one point that in a de-greased de-waxed clean barrel it took about one round per inch or so (depending on ammo design and mfg) to redeposit a normal residual 22rf lube film the length of the bore.  Until the lube film covered the bore the bullets were riding on at least partially bare metal and  that friction slowed them down causing low hits.  He was mostly involved with the BR50 type crowd and not talking about the longer ranges that we commonly shoot for our matches.  And he was talking about the need to "season" a barrel after a cleaning or changing ammo brands with a different lube makeup.  I think our distances would amplify that effect.  

I'm pretty well convinced that anything that reduces velocity will cause lower bullet strikes than a faster bullet, and that for any given ammo and barrel combination colder means a thicker lube film and less velocity. 
There are multiple variables of course, varying bullet velocity and lube characteristics, differences in ambient temp and barrel mass that will change the rate at which the barrel warms and the lube film thins to the point where you get "normal" bullet velocities.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #12 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 8:51pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Nov 4th, 2014 at 6:46pm:
We have shot rimfire down to -40 degrees. 


WHY?  Dave, Why would anybody shoot at -40?  When I was a kid, milk froze before it hit the bucket when milking cows anytime it got down to -20! 

I suspected the temps would come in between 40 and 50 F. 

My experience with Federal has been shoot it and never clean the barrel.  It takes at least a box to get back.  RWS, on the other hand, seems to like a nice clean barrel with only 4 or 5 foulers.
  

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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #13 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 9:44pm
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  That would be Bill Calfee, I'm guessing.  I do not recall him ever stating that, and I've competed with one of his rifles in the past I would  tell you that it has been shown that in the benchrest world with extensive testing at 50 yards/ meters, the first shot from a clean match barrel is usually high and over a chrono, faster. In a  solvent cleaned and brushed barrel of proven capability, it will usually take no more than 4-5 shots to begin a target with desirable shot to shot performance. Ambient temps have shown to be not particularly important and barrel interior temps not subject to major change. What is critical is a certain " pacing" of shooting to allow a consistant interior lube viscosity. It is a well known fact that many barrels, if you wait more than a minute or so will have a flyer if you do not utilize a sighter or two first.
I would tell you that these are not untested nor unproven considerations in the rimfire bench world and pretty widely practiced.
« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2014 at 9:51pm by tim_s »  

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Re: Lowest 22 RF Temp
Reply #14 - Nov 4th, 2014 at 11:09pm
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Why would anybody shoot at -40?

Northern Canadians are adapted to their environment.

We enjoy shooting winter or summer and we go camping at -40 and ice fishing as well. 

Only way we can get tuned up to compete with the Americans for the spring shoots. 
We cannot afford to travel to California for the winter to practice up.

Besides the bears are hibernating and it is much nicer when the mosquitos are not out.

Sunday is our first of six winter Schuetzenfests for this year.
« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2014 at 11:16pm by Schuetzendave »  
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