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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Laminated steel (Read 11158 times)
Singleshotlover
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Laminated steel
Oct 28th, 2014 at 12:05am
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Was given a 12 guage hammer gun to tidy up as its missing some wood. On the rib it is marked laminated steel. I'm guessing here but is this the same as the old damascus steel barrels?. Haven't cleaned the bores out yet but look to be somewhat on the bad side. Just a wall hanger in my opinion, no manufacturer's name to be found as it's looks to have several coats of black paint. Thanks,Frank
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #1 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 12:39am
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When in doubt these are definitely wall hangers. Laminated is Damascus. I have a 10 gauge muzzleloader that is Damascus with mint bores. I have shot it with a heavier load than I probably should have with no problems. That was many years back and I would only use very light loads in it today, IF I ever had the nerve to shoot it again.
  
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waterman
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #2 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 1:59am
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I was raised by my grandparents.  Back in 1956, I came home with a hammerless Damascus 20 gauge.  Grandpa (born in 1876) chewed me out and took the gun away.  Grandpa said that for as far back as he could remember, his father only had a thumb and index finger on his left hand.  A Damascus barreled 12-bore let go and took off the other 3 fingers.  Whatever the gain from shooting a twist-barrel shotgun, it is not worth being maimed for life.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #3 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:22am
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     IMHO, if the gun is a good quality one and the bores are in good shape, Damascus shotguns are quite shootable.   Loading BP shells is not a big problem, and performance-wise, BP is a better shotgun propellant than smokeless.   
     The trouble comes when the gun was junk to start with and probably dangerous to shoot when new, or when the tubes are weakened by corrosion.
    I just this weekend bought a very pretty Lefever gun from 1900. It has good case colors on the action and sideplates and two very nicely colored, tho plain, sets of barrels.
      
CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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DonH
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #4 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:27am
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One reason for the bad rep of damascus barrels in this country is that guns made for "hardware"- store" tradewere fitted with cheaply made Belgian-made barrels. Note that I said cheaply-made. I have a Crescen-made gun with Beigian-proofed barrels.

A higher grade US gun like Lefever, Ithaca or Remington would not be in the same class as those mentioned above. The high-grade Brit guns are a whole different story. I think it was in Double Gun Journal that I saw a chart from a Brit proof house showing Best grade damascus barrels prooffing higher than "nitro" steel.
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:38am
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Just a wall hanger in my opinion, no manufacturer's name to be found as it's looks to have several coats of black paint. Thanks,Frank


Hi Frank ---

Yours is a much needed and welcomed contribution to this audience and demonstrates that there are members who have sensibilities and practicalities about them.

If I may, I would like to emphasize that the multiple layers of black paint were added (by someone else) to the gun for a reason, which was most likely to mask the rust/corrosion/pitting on the exterior of the barrel/s.

I always approach a Demascus barrel shotgun purchase candidate with the "doubt" running against the candidate.  In other words, I assume it has a degraded interior unless or until I can prove it to be otherwise.  Said still another way, I error on the side of caution.

I never purchase firearms purely for their aesthetic value, but rather make purchases on the premise that IF it is going to become my property, it is going to have to be of a quality that it will be fired and enjoyed safely.

The proper way to assess the extent of corrosion in the Demascus twist is to take the time necessary to examine the entirety of the exterior with a 10X or greater Loupe and the interior with a like powered Bore Scope.  If the Seller objects to such close scrutiny prior to the purchase one need only politely thank him but look for a more reputable gun seller.
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:50am
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My research on double barreled twist steel shotguns barrels shows me that the prominent name double gun makers in American acquired the Demascus tubes in Europe and fitted them up to their particular style actions here in America.

The point that Don H. may have overlooked is the time period that runs between the double gun being shipped at assembly and the time at which you wish to make a purchase of it.  That is, how well was the Demascus twist steel maintained ?  Or, should I say, how badly was the Damascus twist barrels neglected by their prior owner/s?

Get the point?  The issue is not the integrity of the barrels on the day they left the assembly plant, but rather the integrity of the de-graded barrels when you want to purchase them in 2014. 
  
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craigd
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 12:51pm
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I'd agree that a purchase that's intended to be fired should be evaluated on some intelligent level that has to do with the suitability to fired. I think any caution that can be warned about a damascus barrel makes the exact same sense to apply to a conventional steel barrel. That would apply to original specs, later misuse, poor care or improper tinkering. Since the original example gun was under consideration to be fired, maybe a good smith should take a look at it. Sooner or later, someone's going to take it off the wall and try anyway.
  
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Fred Boulton
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #8 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 1:19pm
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The picture shows a best quality Belgian hunting rifle in damascus, so finely made that I can't figure out how they did it---I should add that I am a retired professional engineer with experience of forging. The reference to best English guns I find amusing, since the majority of best guns from London were actually made in Birmingham with barrel  blanks sourced in Belgium. Birmingham made wonderful high quality guns, as did Liege, but both locations also made a lot of rubbish for the cheap end of the trade. Before somebody asks: yes, I do shoot it. The bore is mint.
Fred
  
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uscra112
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #9 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 1:39pm
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The more I learn about how steel was made in those days, the less sanguine I am about shooting a Damascus barrel.  The constituent metals were loaded with microscopic slag inclusions, as a consequence of the methods used to convert pig iron to wrought iron and thence to steel.  Where these reach the surface, (and they do), they are a ready-made path for oxygen to enter and deteriorate the metal.   

My .02 worth.....

Phil

  

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frnkeore
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #10 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 1:40pm
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Damascus barreled guns have gotten a unwarranted bad reputation. If you were to read Greeners book "The Gun and its development" you'll come away with a better understang of them.

I'm not a "wall hanger" collecter and wouldn't buy a pitted barrel of any kind but, I do shoot my digger squirrels with my damascus barreled, Bonehill (not a high end brand) exposed hammer SXS using 1 oz standard 12 Ga loads.

Frank
  

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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #11 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 2:06pm
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That's a real beauty of a rifle Fred. I'd shoot it too.   

As for shotguns with Damascus twist barrels, I avoid them. Use an A5 for hunting and a Rem 1100 trap for trap shooting.  Do not keep wall hangers either. 

I like rifles mostly. Single shot rifles. 

     Joe.
  

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boats
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #12 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 2:50pm
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I shot nearly 600 shells through laminated and Damascus Parkers last weekend, SxS shoot with over a hundred competitors.  Nobody lost any fingers.

We examine the barrels carefully measure wall thickness and use appropriate ammunition.  If checked out they are safe. One that's bad is bad no matter what the steel.   UK proff houses pass Damascus guns as safe, or so I am told, just shoot American Shotguns myself.   Should Note smaller the bore higher the pressure. 10's and 12's work at very low preassure.

Boats
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #13 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 3:17pm
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Before somebody asks: yes, I do shoot it. The bore is mint.
Fred

Hello Fred -- Yes, I was just about to ask.  It appears to be a "bar lock" from a distance and soooo finely made.

What gauge or caliber is it Fred ?  You have a rifle to be proud of and was it a found in England or the U.S., if I may inquire about that aspect?

Thanks
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Laminated steel
Reply #14 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 3:33pm
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I think any caution that can be warned about a damascus barrel makes the exact same sense to apply to a conventional steel barrel

 
Would I be correct to interpret your words "a conventional steel barrel" to mean a bored and/or reamed solid bar with it's exterior profiled?

If so, I would agree with you 100 % and it does show you are mindful about the potential dangers that used or antique guns present to their users.  That is exactly the reason that the British have and maintain their Proof Laws and the Proof House to enforce them.

The original thread was pertaining to "Laminated Steel", so perhaps it would be beneficial to save your expansion of the conversation into "conventional steel barrels", if there is such a thing, for another time and sitting.
  
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