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cheatin_charlie
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cartridge pressure for weak actions
Oct 24th, 2014 at 6:55am
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While reading the post on Trail Boss powder I got to thinking,  I know a bad thing to do this early in the morning.
IMR says a case full of powder up to the base of the bullet is safe for that cartridge.  But does that mean it is
safe in any action,  that is the question?  Are there pressure signs to be seen on a case or primer before the
pressure is too great for say a stevens 44 action or Ballard?  Maybe I am wrong but I think IMR is talking about
their maximum load being save in any modern action.  I am a little nervous taking that advice at face value.
Am I out in left field or just need more coffee to wake up?  Are there pressure signs to look for when loading
for a weak action besides chunks of cast iron?  Cry
  
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40_Rod
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #1 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 8:44am
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I don’t know why this powder keeps getting talked about for our rifles. It’s not accurate. Its only attribute is that you can fill a case full of it and get low recoil and low velocities with a relatively clean burn. It is not, nor was it designed to be a substitute for wood powders like King’s semi smokeless or Losmoke. It should not be compressed and very bad things happen when it is duplexed. It is simply not a useful powder for our sport.

40 Rod
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #2 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 10:29am
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I was not talking about this powder specifically.  My question is this are there any pressure signs when using
a weak action before you reach the pressure limits of the action?  I know with modern guns you can read and
measure the case for excess pressure but is there any for a weak action like a Ballard or Stevens 44?  Just
because a case can take the pressure doesn't mean the action can.  I do not use Trail Boss powder in rifle
loads I am talking smokless in general.
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #3 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 7:56pm
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You can see the stretch line in the case near the head when the loads are warm in the Stevens 44.  The other infallible indicator is that after a few boxes of ammo through either a 44 or a Ballard, the lever starts drooping, especially with no cartridge in the chamber.  On the 44, you can pull the breechblock back or push it down and see a sliver of daylight between the breech face and the end of the barrel.

Fired primers are not good indicators for these weak actions.
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #4 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 8:45pm
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Thank you that is the first time I have heard somebody talk about pressure signs in weak actions besides
rolling blocks.
  
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.22-5-40
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #5 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 8:48pm
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Graeme Wright in his Shooting The British Double Rifle reports locking up a double rifle using this powder.  Alot of people..myself included had thought this powder on account of it's low velocity to be of low pressure also.  This is not the case.  However, I have found over the years that blanket statements are rarely true.  While I have used TB in revolver ctgs. from .32 WCF thru .45 long-colt..and have gotten better accuracy with other powders..to say it is an inaccurate powder is not true.  While it may be my own dumb luck..I have worked up loads in an original Winchester-Lee straight-pull sporting rifle using this powder.  10grs. will group the Ideal 245495 100gr. g.c. into 3/4" at 50yds. and 1 1/4" at 100.  This load shoots to the open buckhorn rear/german silver blade front sights.  Interestingly, H4227 also was most accurate using 10.0grs..and also shot to sights...However, case necks were badly smoked and muzzle blast was evident.  With TrailBoss..even the low start loads left necks clean and bright with hardly any muzzle blast..could be the higher pressure/faster burn?
  
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Jeff Houck
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #6 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 8:49pm
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By the time you see high pressure signs in the brass you've exceeded the safe level in both the Stevens 44 and the Ballard. Bent Rod explained quite well what happens when these fine old rifles are slightly over loaded - they stretch. If they are over loaded even moderately they may well let go. If the load is high enough to stretch primer pockets (65,000 ish psi?) they will probably become a bomb in you hands.  Sad

I have both of these actions. Staying with black powder pressures or less and both of these guns are as tight as the day they left the factory.  Smiley

Jeff
  

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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #7 - Oct 24th, 2014 at 11:10pm
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Trail Boss appears from Quickload database info to be as fast as Red Dot, but with much more bulk and lower specific energy.  

This issue comes up time after time on other forums, and I've run many trials thru Quickload, using small cartridges and big.  Bottom line is that a 100% load density always gives very sharp pressure rise to about 30,000 psi, which might not immediately damage a 44 in .25-20 Stevens, but would be pretty tough on one chambered .32-40, or even .32-20.      

I also have relegated it to plinking loads, just to use it up.  Accuracy in all my trials in .25-21 and .38 Special (for my Colt O.M. revolver) was poor.  It also smells unpleasant to me.

I'm more sanguine about the old 44 than many folks, but I'd suggest not exceeding 70% load density with TB in it.   Subsonic loads are TB's forte.  It is too fast a powder to load up to the 1450fps grail velocity for Schuetzen.  Indeed, it is so bulky that a 100% density load only calculates to 1300 or so. 

As far as pressure signs go,  I would not expect to see anything until you were way beyond safe pressures in the old 44.  Ballards I will not speak to.  I don't know. 









« Last Edit: Oct 24th, 2014 at 11:21pm by uscra112 »  

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Green_Frog
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #8 - Oct 25th, 2014 at 6:15am
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OK, here's a strange but pertinent question... if there has been some "action stretch" will you start to experience case stretch and perhaps case failure near the top of the web?  A fellow shooter with a Stevens 44 is noticing this weekend that his fairly new 25-20 WCF brass is beginning to fail about a quarter inch up from the rim, and all of it is showing signs of distress there.  HMMMM?   Huh

Froggie
  
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Jeff Houck
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #9 - Oct 25th, 2014 at 12:45pm
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Yes, the stretch marks "1.4" above the head" is a sign of the action stretching under excess pressure OR a sign of excess head space. If the brass is sized to a crush fit in his chamber then it's a sign that the action is giving under pressure.
Jeff
  

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uscra112
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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #10 - Oct 30th, 2014 at 5:11am
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If he's loading .25-20 WCF up close to SAAMI maximum, it's likely action "stretch", which is to say that the breechblock kicks back and down, compressing the link, and even bending the pins.
  

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Re: cartridge pressure for weak actions
Reply #11 - Oct 31st, 2014 at 5:30pm
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Trail Boss has an extremely fast pressure curve. Pressure might be moderate but it spikes extremely fast. Not good in our guns or our sport.
  

Roy B
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