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Schuetzendave
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Compression Swiss FFFg
Sep 11th, 2014 at 5:52pm
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I tested heavier loads for my 410 grain Money bullet for my .40-65. I have no throat in my barrel and have to compress the powder to increase velocities. I am unable to push the bullet further down the barrel.

I tested Swiss FFFg powder loads with .230 and .310 compression under 15 km/hr. winds gusting to 20 km/hr.

300 yard group size (width by elevation)with .230 Compression:

52.7 grains Swiss FFFg: 5 7/8" x 5 1/8"
52.8 grains Swiss FFFg: 5 3/8" x 4"
52.9 grains Swiss FFFg: 6 1/2" x 7 3/4" 

300 yard group size (width by elevation)with .310 Compression:

55.7 grains Swiss FFFg: 11 1/2" x 14 1/4"
55.8 grains Swiss FFFg: 9 3/8" x 5 7/8"
55.9 grains Swiss FFFg: 8 3/4" x 9 1/2" 

Groups opened up considerably when I compressed Swiss FFFg too much.
  
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ClaMar
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #1 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:12pm
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Dave,

Have you tried FFFg Swiss with 0.050-0.060" compression?  I've loaded some of that in a .45-70 and found it to work well.

My .40-65 with the 400 gr. Money bullet (reduced front band) seems to really like 1.5Fg Swiss with ~0.160" compression.  ~68 grains in a Shiloh chamber.  I'm getting almost 1350 fps with that combo., and it averages ~1 MOA for 5 shot groups at 300 yd.

Clarence
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #2 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:31pm
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Yes I am getting 1 MOA (ten shot groups) with lower compression (.170) of Swiss FFFg (out to 300 yards). 

However my Money bullet is going to sleep at the Rams.

I am stuffing more powder into my .40-65 to increase the velocity and get it to stabilize out to the Rams.

There is no throat in my barrel and I cannot push my bullet any further down the barrel. 
Only way to get more powder in is to compress it in the case (or custom build a bullet with narrower driving bands or else throat the barrel).

Trying the cheapest solutions first.

Also my barrel's bore is not the standard .400.
It is a narrower .398 and to use standard bullets I need to lever them into the chamber.
My narrow Money nose will chamber. However I cannot push them any further out of the case.
« Last Edit: Sep 11th, 2014 at 7:38pm by Schuetzendave »  
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nuclearcricket
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:06pm
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Dave, another solution may be to reduce the size of the first band so that you can seat it farther out. I am not real familiar with the money bullet but I have a feeling that the nose ends up at or near the diameter of the first band, thus a bit of the nose might need to be reduced. Not sure if a .398 or .397 die is available or not.
Sam
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 10:24pm
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Dave, you might want to look at the Buffalo Arms money bullet with three reduced driving bands.  I've been using the Saeco #740 bullet as it's more accurate but might switch to the money bullet for the rams.  I can get 68-69gr of Goex FFFg Express under that bullet without a lot of compression.  

If you like I can mail you a few as you are also north of the border.

Chris.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #5 - Sep 11th, 2014 at 11:34pm
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Dave, I had NEI make a 45 with reduced diameter bands that would go up into the bore when we were shooting long range back when 45-70 was the only brass that was reasonably and readily available.  That method worked very well to get more powder and velocity.  NEI kept the cherry and added it to their line up.  Even Paul Mathews thought it was a good bullet according to a few articles he wrote in those days Smiley  Give it a try.  I bet you will be a happy camper.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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SSShooter
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #6 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 6:07am
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Am using the BACo 400gr M4 & 420gr M4 (though it casts at 412gr for me) Money bullets and am using 4x0.060" wads and 3x0.060" wads, respectively, to get them out far enough to get into the lands. They might work well in your 'no-leade' chamber. Use as much as 66gr of 2F Swiss with ~0.010" compression and excellent accuracy. I load them just a bit long and use one of Arizona Sharpshooters' cartridge seating tools when loading as the Hepburn has no camming action. With the High Wall did not need to use the seating tool.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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kkid66
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #7 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 8:36am
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I shoot 71 plus grains of swiss 1 1/2 with about .045 compression in ww brass 2.130 long. only have .215 bullet in the brass. Money bullet did NOT work till I hardened it up to 15-1 with 95/5 solder. With 3f only difference I could tell was harder fouling and worse muzzle bounce. LB
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #8 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 5:06pm
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I already had a custom bullet built with a .397 nose to fit my tight bore.

However my driving bands are over .400 and cannot go into the bore.

I would need to build another custom bullet with the first and second band only being .397 to fit my tight bore if I want to add powder without compressing too much.

In two weeks I will test further at a BPCR match. Slightly reducing accuracy to 2 MOA with .230 compression seems to be working on the Rams. 
It appears I have increased velocity enough that it is stabilizing the bullet at the Rams.

I tried it once so far and got 9 Rams in a row. 

Using 50 grains powder or going to 56 grains with .310 compression and I was only getting two Rams. 
I think I may have resolved the long distance stability of the Money bullet by increasing the powder to 53 grains and still maintain accuracy by keeping compression down to .230.

I found I could not compress Swiss FFFg too much (over .250 compression) before the groups would start to open up considerably.

So maybe I don't have to build another custom mould.

With the .40-65 I have not had any problems with hard fouling or muzzle bounce. I am only using two third the powder you were using in the .45. 
With arthritis I have moved away from the .45-70 and am trying to find lower recoil alternatives.
« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2014 at 5:16pm by Schuetzendave »  
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gunlaker
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #9 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 6:14pm
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Good to hear that your new load is working well.   

I think that the .40-65 is about perfect for silhouettes.  I think that the main advantage is the lower recoil for offhand.   

This fall I'm going to try working out a faster load for 500m with the Baco M4 bullet. 

I've got one that'll do 1.5 moa at 200m with ten shot groups, but didn't bother using it as the Saeco bullet was clearly better at that distance.   

I'd like a little more retained velocity at the rams and the money bullet ought to help.  Not for the accuracy, as my Saeco bullet seems to shoot very well at that distance, but for a bit more knock down power.  Currently the rams fall very slowly compared to my .45-70.

Chris.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #10 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 6:43pm
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My shooting partner hit a Ram absolutely dead center at the last shoot with his .40-65.

It never budged and it was not pinned.

We were complaining about the .40 calibers but the guy beside us hit a Ram with his .45-90 and it never moved.

Guess the wind from behind was a balancing force.

Some days it doesn't matter what you take to the range.

  
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2014 at 7:48pm
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I rang one with a hit just below center of mass.  On the same relay a friend did the same with his .38-50.    Sometimes I hold my breath watching them go down through the sights.   They seem to take forever compared to my .45-70.    I won't be switching back any time soon though.

What make is your barrel Dave?  It sounds like the bore diameter might be a bit less than the one on my Shiloh.   

Chris.
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #12 - Sep 13th, 2014 at 9:54pm
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Barrel is a Shiloh Sharps.
  
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Re: Compression Swiss FFFg
Reply #13 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 7:34am
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At the MI regional the 1st weekend of July I hit a ram in the horn just above his shoulder with a 360gr Money bullet that launches at about 1400fps from my 38-56 and it did not go down. First time in 5yr+ of shooting the 38-56 that I rang a ram. The shooter next to me happened to shoot within a second, or so, of my shot and hit his ram almost dead center and there it stood. He was shooting a 540gr 45-70 with 72gr of powder. Guess we shared the same puff of wind that kept our rams standing. On the 2nd string we both knocked those two rams. 

Read an article in an old BCN where the author believes that the longer bullets impart more energy to the target better than the same weight bullet that is shorter (i.e., a 400gr 40cal is better than a 400gr 45cal hitting the target at the same velocity). His argument was along the lines of the longer bullet staying on the target surface longer while deforming before ricocheting off. Food for thought. But, as we all know, the real key to knocking rams over is to hit them. Wink
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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