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rfd
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the .45-70 and the holy black
Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:11pm
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been reloading smokeless for rifles and pistols for 5 decades, and about 3 decades into flintlock muzzleloaders.  it's time i got into bpcr.  did lots of reading, got some good books, got a good idea of what's entailed, could use some confirmation/help from y'all.  i've been casting only pure lead for ml balls, and have just acquired a separate melter to use for the alloy bullets.

currently loading .45-70 with aa5744 and trail boss, .030" card wad.

as to loading cartridges with bp, here's an outline of what i think the process could/should be ...

i've got fireformed brass that's been trimmed, chamfered and primed. i know the cartridge oal, with the 20:1 alloy bullet touching the rifling lands.  after making up a dummy round, i know how far down in the brass the bullet will seat. so ...

- mark a length of dowel with that bullet depth
- drop fill powder into the brass to the depth of the dowel's marking
- increase the powder volume/weight to allow some compression (how much?  should the powder get weighed for reference or measured volumetriacally for reference, or both?)
- compress the powder to the bullet depth
- insert .030" card wad (this will add a tad more compression)
- seat the bullet to the target oal   

school me, please.  tia.
  

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rgchristensen
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #1 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 8:47pm
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    Big order.   My own experience is that a chonograph is the most useful load development tool.   Various powders will like different amounts of compression.   Swiss 1.5 Fg less, Goex FFg more.   I have never found any improvement on the load from using a wad, however, others swear by them.   
     Alloy -- most find that 1:30 is satisfactory, some use 1:20, which is not much different.   Most don't like antimony in the alloy.
     Lube -- I use a lube composed of beeswax, lanolin, and Mobil One motor oil.   SPG will be fine, and very similar.
    Bullets -- I have done some competitive shooting with TD 45-70 and find that for MR, 400 gr bullets of 464 diameter will work - depends on the rifle.   The 400 gr bullets will not upset satisfactorily, but undersized 500+ gr bullets can be used, and will slap the snot out of you in a TD.
   This is not the total synopsis of my ignorance of the subject, but a good sample.

CHRIS
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nuclearcricket
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 9:38pm
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A little more information would be helpful, what rifle are you using and what bullet?
I have a Shiloh #1 in 45-70 and I shoot a 535 gr Postel bullet in it cast of 30-1. I use a caliper to measure my compression depth. To get that number, take your loaded overall length, subtract the case length and then subtract the total bullet length, you get a negative number but that is what you want, that is your compression depth. Once I drop tube the powder, I compress it and then seat a LDPE wad on top of the powder and then a wax paper wad on top of that, then seat the bullet. You do not want to compress the powder much if any with your bullet. The wax paper wad is to keep your thick wad from sticking to the bullet. I have used as much as 68 gr of Goex Ctg powder under that bullet and it has shot very well for me. 
Depending on your powder, I would start with just a little compression and work your powder charge up until you get the accuracy your looking for.
Sam
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #3 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 10:41pm
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   Generally you get the best results with as-fired cases, with the bullets seated loosely in the case mouth.  This is a little problem with the 45-70, as you are stuck with a SAAMI chamber, which is somewhat loose.  Loading with the bullets seated firmly into the leade will help center them up.

CHRIS
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Seanmp
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #4 - Sep 9th, 2014 at 11:16pm
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I think your on the right track. As Chris suggested a chronograph or group testing is going to really guide your way forward

*I put the wad card on before the compression. It just saves a step.

*Try compression from 0 to about .300" if your using Goex. Adding compression will positively affect fouling but there is no guarantee that "X" amount is going to be the sweet spot for your rifle.

*I personally weight my charges but I have had real consistent( +-0.2gr) results throwing charges from a good volume measure...If I get the rhythm consistent.

*Don't be at all concerned with how much powder your using compared to what the next guy says. Black is not at all like smokeless in that respect.
  

Sean
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rfd
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #5 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 6:04am
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this will mostly be for the new .45-70, a pedersoli bodine rolling block w/34" barrel.

i have Lots of bullet flavors on hand, but almost all are #2 alloy and not bp lubed.  until i begin casting, the bullets i'm using are 20:1 chey-cast, 500 grain spire points.  i've used them with good results with smokeless, they're already bp lubed, though i also have my own homemade smokeless and bp lube blends.

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i've got lotsa goex black in 2f and 3f.

i have both fed 210 and 215m primers.  from my stash of starline brass, i've set aside 100 cases with flash holes drilled and deburred with a #41 bit.

bullets are seated firmly with a redding comp die, no crimping.

i have a chrono and i know about working up loads.  i initially just wanna build safe cartridges, not necessarily the most accurate - that "fun" will come later.  

my concern is the constant warning i read about no air space 'tween the black and the bullet - and as we know, this is just the opposite of smokeless.  

so i gather the compression thing can be from nearly nil to whatever it takes to make an accurately consistent round.  

if the compression nil to a "tad", would a compression plug be required or can the bullet seating take care of a .030" - .062" amount of powder compression?

i guess i'm more or less on the right track.  thanx for all yer responses and help.

  

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Seanmp
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #6 - Sep 10th, 2014 at 7:48am
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I would spend the few $ on a compression plug. Or make one. It takes a fair push to squish BP. 

I think most folks are just thumbing the bullets in. No real need for the seating die unless your putting a small crimp on for a hunting rd. 
The " no airspace" mantra is a myth in modern barrels. I've breech seated bullets with up to 1/2" of air gap. 

You might want to put a piece of newsprint or similar in the bottom of the case to keep the powder out of the flash hole. It really does improve consistency. I use a .430 cut from kitchen parchment paper. 

There is lots of wiggle room in " safe loads" with BP. On my last bracket test I worked from 66 up 90 gr. that's about the max I have ever been able to drop tube into a 45-70 starline case. And once you hit a certain point the velocity doesn't change much at all. But you'll see a difference at the target and in the barrel. 

I use 2f for target work. Some folks even use 1f as it's slower but more consistent. But I use 3f for hunting loads. 

Essentially you can do everything from throwing a charge and thumbing a bullet down on top in the field to the most elaborate regime you can dream up in the loading room.
  

Sean
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #7 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:01pm
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If your replica has an 18" twist and you plan on target shooting, get a mould for a bullet of at least 500 grains; 525 to 550 is even better.  An excellent starting point is the Government bullet, Ideal 457125, or a custom version of the same.  Another bullet that you can scarcely go wrong with is the 550 grain Creedmoor formerly made by Paul Jones and copied by a lot of other custom mould makers.  Hold off on specialty designs like Postells, Moneys, Schmitzers and other exotica until you see how your shooting goes with the good old standbys.

For fun shooting with occasional excursions to 300 or 300 yards, another go-to design is the Ideal 457124 for the Government carbine load.  The US Army spent the equivalent of 100 gazillion of today's inflated dollars designing and optimizing the .45-70 with these two bullets.  More RTD&E than any gun company or individual could ever do, so obviously these will be easiest and quickest to get good loads with.  The Schmitzer I tried worked OK in practice but kind of fell apart in a match for me. YMMV, of course.

Put your bullet into an empty unsized case, carefully put the assembly in your chamber and close the breech.  Carefully extract it and note bullet protrusion and slight rifling marks on the nose and front band.  Subtract protrusion from bullet length and this is your seating depth.

Drop tube in powder so the column height plus the wad is that seating depth.  Shoot these loads, note results, and start adding powder, 3 gr at a time, compressing and shooting until the groups shrink to the optimum.  For me, this works out to 63-64 gr Swiss 1-1/2 or 66-67 gr Olde Eynsford, behind the Paul Jones Creedmoor.  Slight compression for the Swiss, somewhat more for the OE.  People I shoot with and many I read about are loading around these numbers, so they are a good starting point.

Use SPG lube and a blow tube between shots.  Take careful notes.  BP loading is more "nuanced" than smokeless, but not witchcraft or rocket science.
  
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rfd
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Re: the .45-70 and the holy black
Reply #8 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 1:27pm
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thanx - the twist was reported as 1:18 and i verified that's true.  i have a lyman 457125 on order - just too many folks are recommending that bullet and mould not to ignore getting it before messing with others.
  

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