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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 40-90 (Read 6166 times)
pwDave
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40-90
Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:40am
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The 40-90 saga continues, I have been fighting the usual heavy fouling at the case mouth, havn't found anything yet, but still working on it. it seems from looking at my load data that the heavier loads are shooting better. I  expected that seating the bullet out in the case would improve the accurecy, and it did. (about .125 in the case) I am shooting ten shot groups only @ 100 yds. I am down to 3 1/2 inches, I would like to see consistant 2 inch or better groups. My grease cookies are 75% bees wax and 25% lanilin. I am pouring this mix over a sheet of 3/16's felt and cutting the cookies at .413 for my .405 bore kreiger bbl.  after each shot I have to wipe the bbl to chamber the next round. the fouling in the first 2 inches of the bore comes out the end of the bbl looking like burnt grass!!! am I doing the cookie thing right or is this someting else I'm thirty years behind on?  the rifle is an old rebarreled shiloh, 40-90BN. I expected some fouling from the BN, but being able to get a second shot would be nice.  PP bullets, .405, no free bore   all help is greatly apprieciated,  Dave.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: 40-90
Reply #1 - Sep 6th, 2014 at 11:54am
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Is your bullet as heavy as the twist will allow?  Often a heavier bullet will reduce fouling.  What powder are you using?  A coarser granulation might help too.  I don't have any .40 cal paper patch rifles, but shoot .38's and .45's a lot with paper patched bullets.  In the larger cases Fg works well.   Actually it even works well in the .38-50 Remington Hepburn.

My paper patched rifles generally shoot best when the bore is cleaned with two ( or sometimes three ) damp patches and then a dry patch.   It won't matter too much though if you have a fair bit of fouling as long as you remove it between shots.  If after the second damp patch I see much on the patch I'll run another one through. 

Good luck with the rifle.

Chris.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #2 - Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:07pm
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Chris, the rifle is twisted 1/16, the bullet is a nose pour that weighs 379 grn.  I think I may make some improvment w/ a 400 grn, but I have not purchased a mould as of yet. my paper is 100% cotton,  .0025 thk.  are my grease cookies alright?   Dave.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: 40-90
Reply #3 - Sep 6th, 2014 at 12:44pm
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Dave I've not used lubricated felt wads but I know they have definitely been used successfully.  Usually when I use a lube cookie it'll be 1/8" thick and sandwiched between 0.030" veg fiber wads.  I don't think the makeup of the lube is all that important if you are wiping between shots.   The lube seems to really help more as a gas sealant than as a lubricant.  If you have gas cutting of the patch, a lube cookie is pretty much certain to fix it.   

Chris.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #4 - Sep 6th, 2014 at 8:31pm
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Chris, gas cutting is probably the only thing that hasn't happened to me yet. I am using a .063 veg. wad on top of the powder, two 3/16's felt grease cookies, a thin paper wad, which leaves me about an eighth of an inch to press in the bullet with my thumb, so all of the bullet is in the rifling but the last 1/8th. I can see some paper imprinting pattern on the base of recovered slugs, no signs of cutting, or slipping in the rifling, the patch is coming off in the first 6ft of bullet flight. I have some loaded w/90grns of 1 1/2 swiss that I have not shot yet, tomorrow sometime.  would there be any difference in the amount of fouling between one f and one and one half f?   Dave.
  
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rgchristensen
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Re: 40-90
Reply #5 - Sep 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm
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   Try it without the wads and grease cookies.   I have never found any improvement to result from them.   Others, of course, seem to make them work........
    I wipe with a patch wrung out with 50% antifreeze in water, and leave the bore damp.   This requires some lube on the patch, for which I use Johnson's Paste Wax.
    Since you probably eventually intend to shoot this at long range, chronograph your loads.   It is important to get the velocity quite constant, e.g., SD's in low single digits.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #6 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 11:40am
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rg, I'll try some with out any wads, haven't done that for a while, may work, who knows? it'll be worth the try.   I normally wipe with a wet soapy patch and then two dry, leaves the bore pretty good most of the time. every once in a while(1 out of 20 or so) I'll have some hard fouling in the throat that won't let me chamber the next round, another wet patch gets it though(probably just something I'm doing)I'll post up and let you know how it goes.    Dave.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: 40-90
Reply #7 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 12:25pm
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Dave if you are getting anything even close to enough fouling to prevent chambering then this could be the culprit.  Kenny Wasserburger once advised me that the cleaner the barrel is the better a paper patched bullet will shoot.  I believe he is correct.  Also, as Chris said, spend some time with a chronograph.  In addition to helping reduce your velocity Sd, ( of which bore condition plays a huge part with black powder ), you might find that some wads give higher velocities than others.  I could be wrong, but I attribute this to pressure leakage around the bullet. 

Chris.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #8 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 1:53pm
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Chris, the inside wrap of my paper is coming off in one piece, the outside is coming off in small pieces, however I've not noticed any thing burnt, next session I will watch the pieces of paper closely to see if there is any leaking. I have ten ready to go without any over powder wads, I fully expect to find burnt paper there and maybe a burnt bullet. would it help to compress the load some?  it will be hard to do as 90 grns fills the case to the bottom of the neck and even a little compression will put the charge down in the case.  I have several pounds of Goex 1-f which is a much coarser powder than the swiss, might work, but have not had much luck with it before.   tried some 4759 a month ago, left the bore clean enough to get two more rounds shot without wiping but recoiled a lot harder, so I stopped that. (6grns under 90grns 1-f swiss) Dave.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: 40-90
Reply #9 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 7:34pm
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I've fiddled with a few loads that gas cut and you could see occasional burnt spots on the outside wrap at the base.  It was very obvious on the recovered bullets though.  If your paper looks clean I doubt you are having that problem.

  I compress a little bit with my paper patched loads, unless they are breech seated.  I don't know how much difference that makes if any.  All but one of my rifles make pretty small confetti pieces, including the inner wrap.  One of my .45-110's leaves the inner wrap in only a few larger pieces but I use thicker paper in that one ( a little over 0.002" if I recall ).  It's acceptably accurate for the gong shoots to 800m even though it does not shred the paper completely.

Chris.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #10 - Sep 7th, 2014 at 11:02pm
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Gun, mine is doing what your 45-110 is doing, to the tee, my paper is 100% cotton .0025 thick on a .395 bullet which gives me bore size patched bullets (.405).  should work!   Dave.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #11 - Sep 15th, 2014 at 7:54pm
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RG, tried your suggestion of not using any wads, drop tubed 90grns of 1 1/2 swiss and thumbed a .405 PP bullet in on top, no lube yet on the bullet, still have that to try. but anyway, life let go of my throat long enough for me to get to the range for a while. forgot my spotting glasses so shot ten rounds not knowing where they were going. when I walked down to the target to check I was amazed!!! all ten shots were in a 1 7/8 circle, best group I have shot with this gun EVER.   subtract three and the group is in the 1 inch range. I am going to load twenty more and make sure it's not a fluke. apparently I've been way over thinking this stuff, now for that fouling!!   Dave.
  
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pwDave
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Re: 40-90
Reply #12 - Sep 24th, 2014 at 6:44pm
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It seems to me that I read somewhere on this forum about compressing the powder will help with the fouling that the bottleneck cases are prone to do. is there any help besides a small charge of some kind of smokless??  I would rather not, but if I have to in order to get a second shot without wiping I will.  Dave.
  
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