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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why are my bullets tipping? (Read 12784 times)
boho
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Why are my bullets tipping?
Aug 4th, 2014 at 9:25pm
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Assuming my cast bullets are of high quality and without defect what is causing them to be unstable or out of balance when they leave the barrel? (off-center holes in target)
My bore slugs at .3085/.3087  Twist is 1in 10 X 30''
Barnett bullet 1.105 oal  189grain  .305-.3093  25-1 alloy.
Paul Jones bullet  1.180 oal  192grain .309    25-1 alloy.
Weber breech seater     High wall action
32-20 case  9.5 grains AA 4100  florfoam wad top of powder.

I would like to show a picture but don't know to post them could someone help? 
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 9:34pm
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Send them to my Email. 

frnkeore@aol.com

Frank
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 10:47pm
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I put my wifes rifle together in 32/20 (.308 groove). It's also a HW and has a 12 twist Douglas barrel. I used the Russ Webber way of setting the BS depth. I've only tried 2 powder charges, 9.5 and 10.0 of 296 and it's showing real promice. 

At our last match, while her 5 shot group was 4.28" @ 200, the group size on her 10 shot 200 yd score target was 3.80 with 6 of them in 1.15". 10.0 gr 296 is what the target was shot with.

The 12 twist barrel shows no sign of tipping with a full spitzer (compete sharp point) Ron Long mold that is 1.165 long.

I get much better case life out of Remington cases. I'm having her use 3 case when shooting and using floral foam wads but, in the case mouth. I will add 3 more to them and am hoping to get around 300 shots out of them (6) before they start to seperate.

Your rifle seems to be much like hers (other than twist) and your PJ mold will be simular to my RL. My question would be what is your BSing depth?

Frank
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 1:26am by frnkeore »  

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rgchristensen
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2014 at 11:14pm
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     Seat a bullet and push it back out and see if the bullet is engraving nicely in the leade.   Maybe the tapered bullet is not fitting the leade and not staying centered.  You want rifling marks all down the length of the bullet, and the base-band to be fully marked on its circumference.
     If it looks like that is the problem, try seating a little deeper.

CHRIS
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #4 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 3:36am
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Some rifles shoot their best when the bullet is just barely stable.  My 33-47 bullets tip.  I have shot several 250s with it.
  

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Seanmp
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #5 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 8:51am
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If your seeing a consistent axis of yaw (for shots fired under exactly the same conditions) then I would suggest that you are looking at overstabilization effects.
I ran the numbers on your bullets (I made some assumptions about the nose radius) and they have a stability factor that is high enough to freeze yaw. 
In normal shooting there are two instances of common yaw. 1) almost all bullets yaw immediately after emerging from the muzzle. Normally drags effects dampen this yaw unless the gyroscopic effect is too high and freezes the bullet in the position of yaw
2) High angle yaw occurs as the bullet crests over the top of the arc and the spin stabilization is strong enough to hold the bullet frozen in this attitude.

The trouble is in a condition of spin stabilized yaw precession and nutation have their greatest effect.
For your twist rate a bullet around 1.4" would have the greatest chance of going to sleep
  

Sean
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #6 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 12:36pm
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My rifle also tips and shoots 250s as well.

It shoots very accurately at both 200 and 300 yards.

Do not worry about the bullets tipping slightly.

If they go in sideways then it is a different matter.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #7 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 1:23pm
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How much tipping do you guys think is acceptable? 

I've started to play with the .32-40 barrel on my CPA.  Shooting the 200gr Saeco bullet with Goex Fg I get some tipping at 200m.   

I can post a picture of the holes tonight. 

Chris.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #8 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 2:03pm
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This is a 246 that I shot at Modesto, last year. You can see that not all bullets are tipped badly but, at least, two of the three 25's (probably all three) at the top are and all of the 24's. The 4 O'clock 25's are a double, and it looks like they tipped toward each other. So, actually only one isn't tipped Smiley

They're going through at a pretty good angle but, still good accuracy. After that target, I upped the charge 1/2 a grain and things straighten out. I have shot better scores since the powder increase.

Over stabilized tipping isn't near as bad a situation, if that's what yours is doing.

Frank

« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 3:02pm by frnkeore »  

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JLouis
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #9 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 2:24pm
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Something to think about. If your target backer is leaning forward or back, not plumb or possibly twisted to one side and is not flat, bowed in or bowed out it can give you a false indication of bullet tipping.

JLouis
  

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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #10 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 2:27pm
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Just for a simple discussion on interpreting bullet holes rather than a comment directed at anything specific. The target pictured above is not spin stabilized high angle yaw.
What your seeing is the nose is down and the rear of the bullet is trying to come over the top. This happens when we have a bullet that has the center of pressure that is very far forward and the stability factor is just enough to hold it there. Or the CP is very far aft of the CG and gravity is dragging the nose down while the lift forces acting on the CP are holding the tail of the bullet up. In either case the remedy would be a bit more velocity or a bit more spin

That's not a comment on whether that's good or bad just the interpretation for the sake of discussion. Most really good target type bullets will have the Center of Pressure very far forward.
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2014 at 2:54pm by Seanmp »  

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frnkeore
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #11 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 2:58pm
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This is a drawing of the bullet that shot the above target.

Frank

  

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boho
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #12 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:50pm
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wow! Too much science for my head. Frank your targets both your wife's and yours have the same type of holes I am seeing on mine. I will try to send you a picture and maybe you can then post it. I never noticed this problem at 100 yards but now at 200. I get many off center holes but not all the holes in any given target are off center some seem fine. 
Chris, I will do what you said and seat a few and tap them out. Can the seating depth cause tipping? Sean you may be on to something but you lost me. Could you explain it in a way that I can understand? John, Yes I have thought the same thing. Were I shoot is a public range and the boards are never changed until they fall apart. They are lumpy with holes and old targets and staples. A target will not be very flat on one of these and next trip I am bringing along something to replace it with.

Bob
  
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John Boy
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #13 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 6:57pm
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Tipping I believe is cause by 3 factors:
* Bullets out of round
* Bullets smaller than gtoove diamets
* Bullets not being presented to the axis of the bore
Might also add - loaded rounds not concentric
  
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boho
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Re: Why are my bullets tipping?
Reply #14 - Aug 5th, 2014 at 7:44pm
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If my bore or grove dia. is .3085/.3087   is a bullet sized to .309 to small? And in the case of the tapered bullet .305 to .3093 ?

Bob
  
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