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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Fire forming load for 45-70 (Read 7781 times)
Seanmp
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Fire forming load for 45-70
Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:04am
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I just received 3 (100ct) bags of starline brass and I need to fire form them. I'm looking for suggestions on a light load of that new fangled stuff that will allow me to rattle off these casings in short order. 
I have an easy to shoot 340 gr cast bullet for the job. 

My apologies if this question seems a bit retarded. Yes I can read loading tables but nothing beats experience and I have not so much when it comes to smokeless. 

Thanks for any advice
  

Sean
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westerner
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #1 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:32am
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They don't need fire forming. Load it and shoot it.  Anneal the necks first, then load it and shoot it.

Retard? Nobody's perfect.  Wink

   Joe.
  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #2 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 8:32am
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Fill them full of Black Powder and set them off.
40 Rod
  
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #3 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:19am
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40_Rod

I'm trying to avoid burning up 4pds of my precious BP supply at $30+/pd. Black can be difficult to get at times here. 

Also it takes about 3x longer to load and shoot the black everything considering. Wiping, cutting patches etc etc. Trying to save time and powder by dropping compression and lightening the charge means more wiping....it's pay me now or pay me later.

Westerner
That almost sounds attractive but there is a 5 gr difference between the formed and unformed brass in capacity. So if I work up a match load based on the new cases. Next match I have to do it all again.

  

Sean
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #4 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:21am
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    What are you going to load in it?    If BP, just get/make an expander button that will let the bullet slip into the case necks, and load and fire.    Best results with BP are had when the necks are not sized.
     Annealing necks is seldom a good idea.   It is hard to do uniformly, and serves no purpose in BP loads where the necks are not re-sized, anyway.
     If you are going to load s-----less, just load and shoot.  Don't worry about "fire-forming"   which is really only useful if you are radically changing the shape of the ctg.

CHRIS
RGChristensen
  
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #5 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:56am
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I generally do as Chris says and use cheaper powder ( plain Goex ) for the first two firings. It seems to take a couple of loadings before BP fully expands the cases.   If I was to use smokeless then I'd find any old "trapdoor" load.   

Chris.
  
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #6 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 12:02pm
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Thanks Gunlaker

That's what I'm going with then "any old trapdoor load" ish 28 gr of H4198. Then I can get this done with about a pound of powder instead of 4 pds...Lol $30+/pd is the cheap stuff. I cant even get the good stuff here

I think I didn't make myself clear enough.

As Gunlaker points out it takes several loadings of black powder to fully form out a case.

1) I load BP exclusively but I simply don't want to go through all the work to load 300 cases with BP only to get a partially formed case.
2) 300 shots is a lot of wiping
3) There is a 5gr difference between the capacity of a FF case and a new case. Thats going to cause a deviation in the velocity. Remember back to my other post where I said the gun likes a full column of BP.
  

Sean
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #7 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 12:18pm
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A friend of mines most accurate load, in his Trapdoor is 12 gr Unique with a 450 gr bullet. I think you could take a 340 gr bullet to 15 gr, safely in a Trapdoor.

You might even find a very accurate load somewhere between 12 and 15 gr. Unique is a very accurate powder in 45/70.

Frank
  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #8 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 12:25pm
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I'm sure that load will do the trick for you.  It might even be accurate Smiley.   Every now and then I shot smokeless out of a couple of my .45-70's and I've found pretty decent accuracy with h-4198 and a 450gr bullet.  Regardless, it'll certainly expand the cases in short order and with no wiping Smiley

Chris.
  
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #9 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 5:21pm
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Seanmp wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:19am:


Westerner
That almost sounds attractive but there is a 5 gr difference between the formed and unformed brass in capacity. So if I work up a match load based on the new cases. Next match I have to do it all again.



Oh the drama!   Shocked Grin

You're over thinking this.  Load them with BP and shoot them.  Anneal the necks first.

You ask, we tell you but you don't listen. Oh, the drama!!  Grin

      Joe. 
  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #10 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 5:26pm
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If you really must................ make an expander plug, expand all cases over max dia, then size back so shells just fit chamber. Thereby saving smokeless powder primers lead and labor.

But it's not that critical.  

        Joe. 



  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #11 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 5:36pm
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rgchristensen wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:21am:
    What are you going to load in it?    If BP, just get/make an expander button that will let the bullet slip into the case necks, and load and fire.    Best results with BP are had when the necks are not sized.
     Annealing necks is seldom a good idea.   It is hard to do uniformly, and serves no purpose in BP loads where the necks are not re-sized, anyway.
     If you are going to load s-----less, just load and shoot.  Don't worry about "fire-forming"   which is really only useful if you are radically changing the shape of the ctg.

CHRIS
RGChristensen


That has been my experience too for the past forty years. However, when loading and shooting new Starline 45-90 brass in my Sharps last winter, got a lot of blowby down the sides of the shells. Finally had to anneal the necks. No problems now. I think Starline recommends annealing their brass before using it. Annealing is very easy. Annealed two hundred shells in about an hour and a half.  No problem with consistency.   

       Joe. 
  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #12 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 6:18pm
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westerner wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 5:21pm:
Seanmp wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 10:19am:


Westerner
That almost sounds attractive but there is a 5 gr difference between the formed and unformed brass in capacity. So if I work up a match load based on the new cases. Next match I have to do it all again.



Oh the drama!   Shocked Grin

You're over thinking this.  Load them with BP and shoot them.  Anneal the necks first.

You ask, we tell you but you don't listen. Oh, the drama!!  Grin

      Joe. 


Hahaha Westerner

Not to be a pratt but
.....In a previous thread it was held that an ES of more than 10fps was junk.

I'm reasonably certain that if I have a varience of 5grains in my loads the ES will most certainly exceed 10 Wink
« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2014 at 6:24pm by Seanmp »  

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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #13 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 7:09pm
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You read to much. Load them with black and shoot them. I understand the high price of components. The effort to offset the cost is not worth the effort and cost of different components. 

Make sure to anneal the necks first. I finally caved after three firings. Brass would spring back and leaking continued till I annealed the cases. 

      Joe.
  

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Seanmp
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Re: Fire forming load for 45-70
Reply #14 - Jul 29th, 2014 at 7:29pm
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westerner wrote on Jul 29th, 2014 at 7:09pm:
You read to much. 

      Joe.


Ya I can't argue with that Grin

Alright I'll give it a try. But just for fun I'll shoot 20 and then reload them to see if anything changes.

Speaking of reading I just read the FAQ on the starline site and they do specifically mention the possible need to anneal the case mouths of 45-xx to get them to seal with BP

But does that fall into the reading too much category Wink
« Last Edit: Jul 29th, 2014 at 7:36pm by Seanmp »  

Sean
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