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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour (Read 7343 times)
Bobduck
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Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Jun 20th, 2014 at 9:04am
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I just bought a pot lead melter to try casting bullets with a dipper.  I had read the dipper method gave better results.  I needed to cast about 200 360 grain 38 55 bullets.  So I cast 120 with the dipper and 120 with my bottom pour melter.  I'm sure many of you are already aware of this but here are the results.

Dipper method:
Mean weight - 360.46
Standard deviation - .531
weight spread - 358.1 to 361.5

Bottom Pour:
mean weight - 361.0
standard deviation  - 2.99
weight spread - 347.5  to 364.5

A big advantage for the dipper method.

I'm at somewhat of a loss as to why this is but I suspect it has to do with the fill rate.  The stream of molten lead coming out of the bottom pour is about 1/4 the size of the stream coming out of the dipper.

B'duckie
  
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John Boy
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #1 - Jun 20th, 2014 at 10:23am
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Bob - with a ladle full of melt - the spout in the sprue hole, you have "gravity head pressure".  This gives more consistent fill out - ergo, small weight variances in the bell curve
With a bottom pour, the diameter of the spout is the limiting factor for the amount of head pressure.  Plus the melt being dropped is cooling by the time the lead reaches the bottom of the cavity = wider weight variances

Then casting larger weight bullets, there is a need for more head pressure to allow the melt to completely fill out in the cavity

My best casts are:  ladle - 5 second pour with the correct melt temperature so the sprue puddle frosts in 8-10 seconds for larger weight bullets.  Five seconds for the little guys
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #2 - Jun 20th, 2014 at 11:23am
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Numerous top end competitors have advised me they have better accuracy from bullets that are cast using dippers. 
I have only used dippers to cast even though I have never seen data to verify these claims.

Good to see data that confirms what the old timers have been saying for years.
  
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ClaMar
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #3 - Jun 20th, 2014 at 7:09pm
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Your dipper-poured bullet data shows considerable weight variations that are probably the result of changing mould or pot temperature.  When your casting process is under good control, you should see almost all your bullets in ~1 gr. total variation.  I suspect that you included bullets cast before the mould was completely hot, and also possibly the first bullets cast after setting the mould down to flux the pot, as well as variations in the time between casting successive bullets.

The most important factor in casting bullets is keeping the mould at exactly the same temperature.  This is done by keeping the lead at the same temperature and casting bullets in a rhythm.  The rhythm can be improved by pouring the same size sprue every time and casting with a clock.  If you are putting the same amount of lead into the mould at the same interval, you are going a long way to keep the mould at the same temperature.

Clarence
  
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JS47
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #4 - Jun 20th, 2014 at 11:59pm
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  When your casting process is under good control, you should see almost all your bullets in ~1 gr. total variation.  

To verify this statement, last night I cast some 470 grain .45 bullets out of 1-40 alloy using a Hoch mold and a dipper.  Alloy temp was 720 degrees.  Once the mold got up to temp I counted to 4 seconds on the pour and left a large sprue.
Weight variation was -.5 to +.5 grain on the 8 or 10 bullets I weighed.  One thing that's important is to keep the dipper spout clean so you get a full stream of melt every time.  I cut off the head of a 3" sheetrock screw and glued it into a wooden handle.  It's a handy tool to ream out the spout.
« Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2014 at 1:18am by JS47 »  
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ClaMar
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #5 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 8:53am
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stockerman,

I also have a crude reamer to keep crud from building up in the dipper spout.  Just a piece of 1/8" rod with a loop on one end and the other end flattened with a hammer to the diameter of the spout.

I formerly cast using a count, but found that my bullets were significantly more consistent if I used a clock.  I hold the dipper on the mould for ~4-5 seconds, but set my cadence so I cast one bullet every 40 seconds (I normally wait until temperature in my shop is 45-50 degrees for a day) and then make slight adjustments to temperature in the 780-800 degree range to make sure the sprue and base are fully solidified.  I break the sprue 10 seconds before the schedule for the next pour.  YMMV, but it has worked for me for 10 years.

Clarence
  
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #6 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 10:40am
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My experience has been ...... it depends on the bullet.
Heavier, larger caliber bullets - the ladle is superior. 

.22 - .35 caliber the RCBS bottom pour makes just as good (if not better in some instances) bullets as the ladle. That is also true of the lighter weight .44 & .45 Caliber pistol bullets (200-250 gr.).

w44wcf
  

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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #7 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 4:19pm
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I have to disagree on smaller bullets being as good or better with a bottom pour. I cast 90 .25s yesterday. Once the blocks were up to temperature all of then came out between 219.32 and 219.40 grains. That’s with a dipper. I would love to hear from someone who can claim that with a bottom pour pot.
40 Rod
  
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #8 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 4:38pm
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When I started this game in 1985, I started with a Lee bottom pour, 10 lb pot and have bottom poured ever since. I was competitive from then until 1997 when I hurt my shoulder. 

I've been back shooting, almost 4 years and for the last 2 years, I'm back to being competitive again, still bottom pouring.

I went to the Spokane shoot in May and decided to take 100 Ladel poured bullets and 200 bottom poured. I really couldn't tell the difference. I did shoot back to back 249's with the bottom pour bullets but, all the other scores, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. At our local club shoot, I shot a .467 5 shot group at 200 yards and at Modesto last year, my small 100 yard, 5 shot group was .336, with bottom pours.

I bottom pour with the sprue plate against the spout (pressure pour), to get a complete fill out. I like that because it completely fills the base band. My base bands perfectly square and have no rounding on them at all. It just seems "right" to me. Out of 100, I'll get a 2 gr variance. Usually about 3 low and the rest 1.5 gr. I don't cast in order so, I can't tell if the lighter ones are a result of the depth of lead in the pot but, I kinda arrange them in groups of 3 weights. But, 2 gr will go in the same group as the others if they are filled out.

I will run a couple of more tests in the coming year using ladel Vs bottom pour, after all, I am in the minority and if I can find a benefit, I'll switch Smiley

Also, I can cast faster bottom pouring than ladel and there is lots less spure lead to throw back in.

Frank
  

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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #9 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 7:49pm
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40 Rod - 219 +- .25's ?
  

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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #10 - Jun 21st, 2014 at 10:02pm
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I started out bottom pouring and did so for several years. If the stream of lead is adjusted properly one can achieve the same quality of bullets as ladle pouring. The reason most ladle pourers would disagree is the never put forth the effort with a bottom pour pot to get it right. I went to ladle pouring due to the bottom pour needle valve continually leaking and I am a neat freak when I am casting bullets. I will also mention it was easier to cast quality bullets using the bottom pour and it was at times a frustrating challenge to learn how to ladle pour quality bullets. 

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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2014 at 8:50am
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Sorry 119.34. Its a Mos 120 mold.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #12 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 12:46am
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Switched from bottom pour to casting with a dipper, and then converted the bottom pour pot to use to make bore laps.

  

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harry_eales
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #13 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 1:16am
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In my early days of shooting handguns for Practical Pistol Competition I was casting over 1,000 bullets a week and at first I used my Lyman moulds and a Lyman dipper. Volume production was slow and laborious, so I invested in a bottom pour pot, sadly production of good bullets of the correct weight was far below what I had hoped for.

I put the margin of bullet weight variation down to the fact that a full dipper of molten alloy will always give you a constant pressure when filling the mould but a bottom pour pot, the pressure of molten metal going into the mould was less and less with every bullet cast, thus making quite a variation in bullet weight.

For those who wonder how I got time to shoot 1,000 rounds of .45ACP a week the answer is simple. I was a firearms instructor for many years as a serving Policeman I was on the range 5 days a week at work and two days at the weekend at my local Gun Club for my own pleasure.  Cool 

Harry
  
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Re: Casting Bullets-Dipper Vs Bottom pour
Reply #14 - Jun 23rd, 2014 at 2:46am
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Cast my first at age 7, from a dipper, the lead pot on a friend's mother's kitchen stove.  His grandfather was casting bullets for his Schuetzen rifle and decided grandson & friend should learn how.

Never used a bottom pour pot until the mid-1990s.  A friend had one & thought it was the best way.  We had 2 Lyman single cavity moulds, both with the same number.  Each of us cast 100 from the same pot, same alloy, etc.  My friend used the bottom pour & I used my dipper.  He had about 2 X the # of rejects that I had.  Difference could be technique, or maybe my 1960s mould was better than his 1980s mould.

I have a bottom pour Lee lead pot but do not use the bottom pour feature.
  
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