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SBoomer
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BP charge variations?
Jun 10th, 2014 at 9:35am
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I really like the idea of loading at the range using “period” tools and am prepping for breech seating a 25-21. I just won an Ideal #1(or a variation of a #1) on e-bay and was curious how consistent of a charge it would throw. I threw (20) charges each on the #1 and then a Lyman 55. Both measures were first adjusted to throw 20grains of FFg. Each charge was put back into the hopper to minimize powder column variations. I was pleasantly surprised to see how close the two measures were. The Ideal #1 threw a low of 20.0gr and a high of 20.6gr for a std dev of .15gr. The Lyman 55 threw a low of 19.9gr and a high of 20.2gr for a std dev of .07gr. 
What is the “normal” acceptable weight variation in your BP loads? Does it vary by total charge weight range….meaning that I assume that 1/10th of a grain has less impact on a 45-70 load than a 25-21 load. Although, I have been reloading and shooting for over 40 years, this BP/breech seating is fairly new to me.  
  
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oneatatime
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #1 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 11:56am
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This is a tricky question. For powders that require compression, the volume may be more critical than the weight in order to get consistent compression. For powders that don't require compression the weight may be more critical. I believe the breech seating ODG just filled up the case and went with it - so volume. For BPCR with Swiss I drop the charge in the scale pan and bring it to exact weight. BP loading is more akin to alchemy than science and it is just something you have to experiment with and experiment with and experiment with.
  
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Captain Bob
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #2 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 12:42pm
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SBoomer — Congratulations on picking up the Ideal #1 powder measure on eBay, pleased to hear you intend to use it. You may already know that you should be able to get a length of copper pipe to replace the missing tin reservoir at any good plumbing supply. Then just drill a small hole for the thumbscrew to lock into. You may or may not want to try slipping in one of the powder baffles still made by Lyman and easily available on line — I do not use one for BP. On mine I have a 12” reservoir which does not need to be charged as often and helps in throwing consistent charges, especially with large capacity cartridges. In my 50 years of experience with Ideal #1, Universal, #5 and #6 for BP and Lyman 55s for BP and smokeless, absolutely consistent manipulation of the tool once you’ve found a routine for a given load is the key to satisfaction with these measures. Judicious or no use of the knocker must be considered. I am of the school that it is not necessary to weigh BP if you have a good routine, I just check every tenth throw. Lastly as you have probably discovered running BP through your 55, if you live in a humid clime it is imperative to disassemble and clean all residue from the tool as soon as you are done with it — leave it uncleaned overnight at your peril. This you will find is a nice feature of a #1 as the measuring barrel is so easily removed by backing off the handle travel lock screw.  Enjoy! -- Bob

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SBoomer
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #3 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 1:13pm
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Capt Bob,   
Thank you for that link! Fascinating! Mine is the early #1 as confirmed in the "contributed" pics. I have been watching for a #6 for over a year. I would love to have one someday.
  
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John Boy
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #4 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 2:07pm
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What is the “normal” acceptable weight variation in your BP loads?

 
I'm also going to weigh in my 2 cents. When I started shooting these cartridge rifles about 20 years ago, I weighed powder, cases, and bullets. After a few years, I ended up just weighing the bullets and the powder only to set up the measure. For at least the last 10 years I've not measured the weights of individual powder charges other then as a spot check. 
The measures I use are Lyman 55 (2), for 38 and 32 caliber. And the old Hollywood for 40 / 45 calibers. I also use a Belding and Mull for my LR muzzleloaders. I find the B+M the most accurate but the others adequate and capable of +/- 0.3 gr or slightly less on average. 

Since switching over to Swiss powder when it became available around 8 years ago, I look for a average amount of compression to determine the powder weight to set the measure to. I also use Schuetzen FG powder for reduced recoil / velocity loads. 

I load for both myself and wife. She makes wads, lubes and weighs bullets. 
At the risk of sounding like a braggart, between us we have 40 National Records in Open, Military, Scope, Muzzleloader and Womens categories for BP Target rifle. And 10 National Championships between Canada and the U.S. in likewise catagories. We don't shoot silhouette. 

To me, the bullet is the most important. Weight, design, appearance and alloy. 
Powder kept around 1/2 grain total variance = good enough. Being able to break a shot down the center, call it and read wind and mirage, priceless...... 

Now this is going to upset some, but we cannot measure / weigh ourselves into the winners circle. It takes range time. I feel much of the time spent at the loading bench would be better spent at the range. I'll grant that weighing everything to a nanograin gives a sense of confidence in the ammo, but perfect ammo won't put the bullet into the center by itself. Frank Monikowski
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #5 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 3:32pm
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Yes, read that post by Frank, no better way to put it - 80% is shooter (at least), the rest is rifle, bullet, load, lube....).  But if the 'nut-behind' won't do it, then forget the rest.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #6 - Jun 10th, 2014 at 9:06pm
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Bob, thank you very much for that link. I spend a few hours on the site. I collect powder measures Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #7 - Jun 11th, 2014 at 6:44am
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I weigh every charge to 0.1gr and then drop-tube. Bullets to 0.5gr. Needed or not, I don't want to worry about my loads. I know that I'm 80% (or more) of the problem.
  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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SBoomer
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #8 - Jun 11th, 2014 at 8:55am
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Bob, Frank,

I spent over an hour on that site last night. I am fascinated with the old stuff. Frank...if you ever have an Ideal #2 that needs work or are selling as a duplicate to upgrade, let me know. I WANT one!
  
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #9 - Jun 15th, 2014 at 12:28am
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I'm with John.  If your time is valuable and you shoot a lot, YOU WILL learn to cast good bullets, (75 to 100/Hr to .5 gr) throw 'good powder charges' (by spot checking to +/- .5 gr) and spend as much time at the range as possible.

Shoot straight
Cary
  
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #10 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 5:29pm
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Think of it this way:

BP has @ 1/3'rd the energy per grain as smokeless so errors can be three times as big before they are "wisible" on the target.
A smokeless barrel is fairly equall from shot to shot, day after day. A BP barrel will foul from shot one and is much harder to get 100% even from shot to shot, unless you clean down to bare metal every shot.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: BP charge variations?
Reply #11 - Jun 17th, 2014 at 5:49pm
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Chickenthief wrote on Jun 17th, 2014 at 5:29pm:
Think of it this way:

BP has @ 1/3'rd the energy per grain as smokeless so errors can be three times as big before they are "wisible" on the target.
A smokeless barrel is fairly equall from shot to shot, day after day. A BP barrel will foul from shot one and is much harder to get 100% even from shot to shot, unless you clean down to bare metal every shot.


I like to think of it that way too.  I weigh my charges mostly because it makes me feel better to keep everything as close as I can.   

Your point about barrel condition is good.  If you spend some time playing with fouling management while shooting over a chronograph you can learn a lot.  Barrel condition consistency really matters when shooting black powder with the .32's and .38's. 

Chris.
  
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