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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire (Read 26958 times)
Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #30 - Jul 28th, 2014 at 1:32pm
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Saturday, I fitted a new "Ammomaster 2" handle assembly to my "RC" press, lengthening the handle length about 4" and moving the force application point from a long cylinder area to a Ball end.

This reduced the total force needed on the handle end to resize .327 Federal Magnum cases down to .32 Extra Long/.32 Long Colt diameters.

As a result I was able to bring 25 cases to finished size in that evening's time after changing out the handle assembly.

This is compared to about 10 that I could downsize at one time before.
Removing the need to stand for each press operation reduced the discomfort I experienced as the forming process continued.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #31 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 5:53pm
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Good News and Bad News:
Tuesday my Gunsmith gave me back one of my 1894 Actions and my 25 Stevens barrel to test and possibly fire (after paying $150.00 for work to date).

The bad news is that there were problems in the setup of the Firing pin  and Extractor with the original Barrel.
1.  Firing pin would 'hang up' on a cartridge rim as the Breech Block is closed unless the action is held in a slightly muzzle up position.
2.  Firing pin would 'hang up' on the Hammer when Breech Block is closed if the muzzle is held too high.
3.  Barrel Rim Rebate is 'tapered from outside diameter to chamber bore so that differing rim diameters seat at different depths.  With original .25 Stevens the largest diameter followed in decreasing size by .25 Stevens/.22 blank adapters, .27 Cal PTL Blanks, and .25 Cal PTL blanks, 
4.  Extractor is cut with the Chamber diameter section too long, causing the extractor to "Cam" the cartridge rim up out of engagement as the cartridge is extracted.
5.  The Extractor is too thick front to rear at the case surface to allow entry into the clearance cut just forward of modern CF Cartridge Rim.  This causes a 'distortion' of case rim and rear face when the Breech Block is closed.

After consulting the gunsmith by telephone and 'puttering' with another .25 Stevens Barrel and a Rim Rebate cutter, I returned the action, two barrels, rebate cutter, chamber reamers, 20 PTL Blanks in two calibers, and two original "Western .25 Stevens Long RF" cartridges to him Wednesday morning so he can finalize the chambers and head space along with fixing the firing pin problems and extractor problem (I believe it should have a narrower front to back 'flat' at chamber diameter with the 'front face somewhat slanted so as to form a 'hook' for the rim, similar to modern extractors).

I also asked him to stamp the Breech Block and Extractor with "25" to identify the Caliber they are fitted for.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #32 - Aug 1st, 2014 at 6:13pm
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Wednesday evening and Thursday morning and evening were spent making up some brass tubing 'blank Adapters' to use .25 Caliber PTL blanks in my .25 Stevens barrels.  These blanks have rims both smaller and thinner than the .25 Stevens RF cartridges so naturally will seat further forward from the Breech Face plane.
With a freshly re-cut rebate and head spaced for the original cartridge, the back face of the Blank will be about .010" forward of where the original rear face was.
Admittedly this is near the maximum normal head space limit allowed in modern guns but I believe this will function acceptably in my old Stevens Favorites.

I have written up the 'new design' cartridge manufacturing process in a Thread on "Ammoguide Interactive" if any readers wish to duplicate the process.  After I get the Action and barrels back from the Gunsmith again I will try them out again with the new design cartridges.

I have loaded the twenty I have made so far with Grade 3 .25 Caliber "Ramset" PTL blanks removed from ten shot plastic strips intended for use in "Hilti DX35" stud guns, with both 50 grain and 63 grain Lead bullets suitable for the Bore/groove dimensions similar to .25ACP specifications.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #33 - Aug 3rd, 2014 at 9:03pm
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Worked up some new Relaodable Rimfire Cases using some Brass tubing (9/32" x .014" wall) cut to 1.125" and run through a .25ACP Carbide sizing die to make them .276" outside diameter.

I then press a .25 Caliber PTL blank into one end to form the 'Rim' at .040 thick and .298" diameter, after which I final trim them to 1.118" 'case length' prior to seating a .25ACP Lead bullet.  I am using Grade 3 PTL blanks as they should yield about 1100fps with my 50 grain bullets.  I have other PTL Loads of the came caliber in Grades 2 and 4 so I can either go up or down to adjust velocity in these.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
« Last Edit: Aug 9th, 2014 at 10:59pm by Chev. William »  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #34 - Aug 6th, 2014 at 6:13pm
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I temporarily received one of my strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite actions back from my gunsmith (after paying $150.00 for the labor so far) to try out with some of my 'replacement' .25 Stevens cartridges.  I found that the firing pin  had too much tip extension and too much travel in the Breech Block; also that the Stevens Favorite was designed without a retraction spring.  The pin tip 'Snaged' on the cartridge rims if the BB was closed when the barrel is pointed down and fouled the hammer if the barrel is pointed up.  I also found that the original Stevens Chambers in my barrels are all worn conical in the rim rebate, so different diameter rim set at different depths, case rear face to Breech face.  I also found the extractor was cut with too thick a section, front to rear, so it 'camed' the cartridge body up and the rim disengaged from the extractor part way out.

Firing found the .25 RF positioned pin striking the rim from the bottom side so it took two strikes to fire a .22 RF blank in any carrier design I tried;but .27 RF Blanks did fire with a single trigger pull.

I returned the Action to my Gunsmith along with two .25Stevens barrels, two more Breech blocks, and an additional lever to have him:
1. Correct the .25 Stevens firing pin problems.
2. Make up a .22RF Breech block-Link-Lever set to work with the revised .25 extractor in my action.
3. Make up a CF Breech Block so I can try some of my CF Cartridge Designs later.
4. adjust the Rim rebates and head spaces to work with both the original .25 Stevens RF cartridges and the smaller .25 RF Blank Rims.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #35 - Aug 6th, 2014 at 6:14pm
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I have been working on a 'Second Generation' design of the tubing style blank adapter.  I find that I can get about 33 pieces of 9/32"x.014"Wall tubing 1.125" long out of a 36" piece to the Hobby Brass tube.  Then square the ends, run them full length through my .25ACP Carbide Sizing Die, chamfer the inside diameter and press in a .25 Cal PTL Blank then trim them to a final 'Case Length" of 1.118" and seat a 51 grain or 63 grain bullet over the 'charge' (the PTL Blank has both Primer and Propellant in it). these I have checked in a 'dummy Chamber' and in a .25 Stevens Barrel and do seat with the rim and rebate in contact.

Both the .25 and .27 caliber blanks measure the same rim thickness so that makes head spacing a little easier.  The .25 Stevens Rims ar e.333" diameter and .050" thick; the .25 Blanks rims are .296" diameter and .040" thick; the Stevens Rim rebates measure about .350" diameter and seem to be cut for the .050" thick rim originally.

As I cut my .25 resized 'Hornet' Adapter cases and .32 Adapter cases so the blank rim is 'flush' with the rear face of the case, they should work with the .22 breech Block, just different extractors.

I will be using my CF Breech Block with at least three different extractors, .25ACP; .25 Stevens CF; and .32 Long Colt.
I will not know for sure if the rim edge notch is needed until I get the action and Breech Block sets back from the Gunsmith again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #36 - Aug 7th, 2014 at 4:06pm
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Noticed today that ONE of my Stevens made .25 Stevens RF barrels, one with a Very Pitted Bore but visible remaining rifling, will accept a piece of 9/32" (about .283" outside diameter) Brass Tubing full length of the Chamber.  This is bigger than most of the barrels I own, which seem to run .278"-.279" maximum chamber diameters for a cartridge that is nominally .276" to .277" body diameter.

Now I will have to decide to either save my money and have this one relined or try to use it as is.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, to be made sometime in the future.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2014 at 8:32pm by Chev. William »  
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #37 - Aug 8th, 2014 at 11:14am
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Hey Chev. William,
I know it's a little quiet here but don't let that stop you from continuing.
I am watching this closely and taking notes.
It'll be great to get some of these fine old rifles shooting again.
Thanks for your research,
Dave
  

ASSRA #10186 (10-25-2021)
Every Mighty Oak Was Once A Little Nut That Held Its Ground
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #38 - Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:56pm
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I'm watching also. Looking to either 25 hornet or leave the chamber be and convert cases.
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #39 - Aug 14th, 2014 at 12:03am
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My 'push piece' for pushing tubing sections through my Carbide .25ACP sizing die failed, so i ordered a pair of replacement 'punches' for Lee "Lube and Size Kits" in a stock .284" size.

Today I had access to my Friends Shop and Lathe so I made a 'split collar' tool to hold the punches while I turn them down to fit my Sizing die.

The first one came out a little loose so I will try it out tomorrow morning to see if I need to make the second one tighter fitting to the Carbide ring of the die.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #40 - Aug 14th, 2014 at 1:53pm
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Tried the new push 'punch' with 30 cut pieces of brass tubing.  it worked for 29 as desired, but he 30th piece ended up 'extruding' the last part when the 'punch' was driven through the die and it came out with a 'skirt' that measured .004" wall thickness.
Eventually I will machine the second one to a closer fit, but this one is usable as is for my case making work.
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Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #41 - Aug 16th, 2014 at 8:38pm
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Friday I was able to use my Friend's Shop and Lathe to cut more tubing sections for my "Second Generation" Blank adapters.

Saturday I 'sized' them with my new 'punch' and out of 129 pieces, had 12 that 'extruded skirts' around the punch.  12 out of 129 is acceptable but not good so it looks like I will need to machine the second one for a closer fit to my Carbide Die ring.

Now comes the Tedious part, trimming them to length.

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Chev. William
  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #42 - Aug 21st, 2014 at 1:46pm
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By Wednesday morning I had 60 pieces Trimmed to 1.060" length, charged with a PTL blank pressed into one end and a few with bullets seated in the other end.

I took a pair of ones made up with Grade 4 blanks and 63 grain Lead bullets to my Gunsmith's shop and we used one of my 1894 Actions and a over length head spaced .25 Stevens Barrel ( the 'lash-up' had about .080" between Breech face and back of Cartridge) to see how my "Second Generation" version would react.

It did fire.
The bullet exited the barrel into my Gunsmith's shop bullet trap.
The blank rim 'vented' upward.
Post firing inspection found the Blank and tube case had moved to the rear, with the Blank moving in the tube also, resulting in the Blank 'unsupported body section bulging out to form an additional 'rim' ahead of the original, which 'ballooned' somewhat before tearing a "T" shaped spot in the top where gases vented.
The tubing expanded from its sized OD of .274" to an OD of .282" and the end near the Blank had a slight 'bell' to it.
The 'bullet' end still had most of the roll crimp still present so the bullet exited with out 'ironing the crimp out'.
There was no evidence of gas leakage around the Tube case nor the front and body of the Blank at he Blank to Tube joint.
The Blank's original Star Crimp had been blown out to full 'cylinder, the diameter of the tube ID.

All in all our experiment proved that the .014 wall tube is viable as a case for this purpose.
Either I should not crimp the bullet after seating or I should 'neck ream' the bullet end to reduce the wall thickness if I wish to crimp.

The Tube should be 'Sized full length' before reuse.  But isn't this usual for reloading cartridges?

We also think that we will not need to repeat the excess Head Space firing experiment again, unless I change basic Tubing wall thicknesses in the future.  

No detectable damage was done to the Action used. This is a upgraded Pivots 1894 Stevens Action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2014 at 11:46pm by Chev. William »  
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Chev. William
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Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #43 - Aug 28th, 2014 at 11:52pm
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(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Photo of my Rim Fire Developments to date:
Series 1 has the Tube case pressed hard against the Blank's Rim.
Series 2 has a small gap between tube case and Blank's Rim.
A Series 2 is shown in a #29 Shell Holder (.25ACP).
Blue is indicator of Grade 2 PTL Blank used.
Green is indicator of Grade 3 PTL Blank used.
Yellow is indicator of Grade 4 PTL Blank used.
Red is indicator of Grade 5 PTL Blank used.
  
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