Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire (Read 26971 times)
uscra112
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4079
Location: Switzerland of Ohio
Joined: May 7th, 2007
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #15 - Jun 27th, 2014 at 1:31am
Print Post  
Slumlord - Have you got a .25 RF barrel with .258 grooves?  I thought they were all .250.

There's a guy who sells on GB that has a 72 grain bullet mould.  He sells them for the .25-20 WCF shooters, so they may be a little hard.   I'll watch for a listing and post.

  

<div class=
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slumlord44
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2850
Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254
Joined: Dec 21st, 2007
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #16 - Jun 28th, 2014 at 10:47pm
Print Post  
That's about what I come out with but I am no expert at measuring.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
uscra112
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4079
Location: Switzerland of Ohio
Joined: May 7th, 2007
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #17 - Jun 29th, 2014 at 9:22am
Print Post  
That would make the second such barrel that I know of......

BTW this is the GB seller with the .25 caliber 72 grain mould.
None listed right now, but you can email him.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2014 at 9:39am by uscra112 »  

<div class=
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slumlord44
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2850
Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254
Joined: Dec 21st, 2007
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #18 - Jul 2nd, 2014 at 1:07am
Print Post  
Update. Did a little shooting today. All at 25 yards from a rest with the same 44 Stevens. The first target is with the factory Canuck ammo from the 70's. Second target is with the .27  power loads and 50 grain bullets for the .25 APC. The third target is the same power loads and 65 grain bullets from a Lyman 257420 mold with no gas check. The 4th target is from the Lyman 257420 mold with a gas check. The bullets from the Lyman mold were samples sent to me by a kind gentleman on the Cast  Boolits form. So far I think the 65 grain with the gas check shows the most promise. I need to run all these through my buddys Chronograph to see where they are velocity wise. The bore on the 44 is good but not totally pristine. The set trigger is excellent. Need to try these with my 418 Walnut Hill. (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2014 at 1:57am by slumlord44 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #19 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 1:32am
Print Post  
I spent the last few days preparing parent cases For the .25 Stevens Family of cartridges.
These latest ones are made with my Current Set of tooling and I have modified some of them to be Rimfire adapters using my new Cutters/Tooling.

1. Started out with used R-P .22 Hornet Brass, Expanded the necks and shoulders to .250" inside diameter, then used my "RC" press, the .25ACP Carbide sizing die, and the 'RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit', with an added Fender Washer, to form the cases Full length, including 'coining' the rims down, to .25 Stevens Case diameters and rim thickness.

2. Trimmed a group of the parent cases to .25 Stevens Length (1.125" roughly), and using a Battery Drill Motor and a Fine Single Cut Mill File, finished the Rims to thickness and diameter (.346" to .348" diameter by .060" thick) to fit my Stevens Barrels chambered for the .25 Stevens Rf cartridge.

3. I then Set up my "#8 Cap screw combination Drill and Counterbore in my Drill Press over a Machinist Vise C-Clamped to the Press table positioned so a Case clamped in the Vise "V" would be centered under the Chuck and its Tool. The Drill/Counterbore needs slow feed as it is sharpened for Steel, not Brass, cutting. The Drill Press depth stop was used to limit counterbore depth to less than the rim thickness (depth of counterbore cut was set to about .040", leaving about .010" rim metal thicknes).

4. The same setup was used with a #2 Drill to open the case hole from about .179" to about .219".

5. The Same setup was used with a "Match Grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber reamer to open the through hole in the case head to fit 'Tightly' a .22 Blank.

6. Using a separate, smaller, Machinist Vise on my Loading Bench and the same Mill file, I cut a Firing pin Clearance slot in one side of the nearly finished adapter case rim.

7. I then deburred and smoothed the the 'finished' Adapter Case base and rim before primer/load was inserted.

Continued:
Chev. William
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #20 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 1:36am
Print Post  
8. Inserted a .22 Caliber Grade 1 Power Tool Load Blank and used my loading press to push it home in the Adapter, using a Dummy Chamber and the Stripper cup from the Swage Kit WITHOUT the Swage Punch.

9. Polished the finished loaded Adapter using the Battery Drill motor and a Green Scotchbrite pad.

These 'loaded' Blank adapter cases have the existing Grade 1 PTL powder loading of 1.31 Grains of flake, fast burning, powder and I intend to use them to verify I have enough Firing pin clearance to set them off in a Stevens Favorite Rifle fitted with a '22LR' Breech Block and a .25 Stevens Chambered Barrel.

Later, after reloading the Adapters with new Blanks, and reassembling the Stevens Favorite with a .25 Stevens RF Breech Block and the same .25 Stevens barrel, I will check the firing pin will fire the Blank, as my measurements appear to allow.

This series of tests will verify I can fire my Stevens Favorite with either a "CF" Breech Block, a ".22RF" Breech Block, or a ".25RF" Breech Block assembled in to my action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2014 at 2:50pm by Chev. William »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spud
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 524
Location: Australia Oz
Joined: Feb 24th, 2005
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #21 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 9:48pm
Print Post  
Chev & Slumlord,
I've been following this thread with great interest as I am also resurrecting a nice old .25RF (Win Low wall with SST - Win factory rebore from .22 LR with barrel marked by J.J.P.). I've still got 4 boxes of 70's Canuck ammo (yes, some of that late production run even made it out here to Australia!!) that I use for fox hunting occasionally. A box can go a long way....
Chev - I've been collecting the dies & tools to make rimfire cases from .22 Hornet brass. Got the .25ACP carbide sizing die & .22 reamer but grateful if you could expand on use of the the primer pocket swaging tool in the process. Sounds a lot easier than cutting down the forward edge of tcase rim.  Thanks.
Slumlord, that Stevens 44 of yours is a real Gem!
Spud
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spud
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 524
Location: Australia Oz
Joined: Feb 24th, 2005
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #22 - Jul 10th, 2014 at 10:00pm
Print Post  
I forgot to add that my Low wall .25RF has a groove of .257 (factory rebore by Winchester in 1908 according to Cody letter).
Spud
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #23 - Jul 11th, 2014 at 2:19pm
Print Post  
Spud wrote on Jul 10th, 2014 at 9:48pm:
Chev & Slumlord,
I've been following this thread . . . . . . . . . . . way....
Chev - I've been collecting the dies & tools to make rimfire cases from .22 Hornet brass. Got the .25ACP carbide sizing die & .22 reamer but grateful if you could expand on use of the the primer pocket swaging tool in the process. Sounds a lot easier than cutting down the forward edge of tcase rim.  Thanks.
Spud


Spud,
The RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit contains several items that I use as part of the .22 Hornet case reforming operations.
These include: 
1.  The Small Pocket Swage punch, which fits on the Press Ram in place of a Shell Holder.

2.  The stripper cup, which goes over the punch and surrounds the top of the press ram, it is intended to 'strip' the swaged case off the end of the punch at the bottom of ram travel.

3.  One 'SAE 3/16" nominal Inside Diameter "Fender Washer', which goes on top of the Stripper Cup to limit the punch ingress into the case head when doing the final portion of head Swaging/rim Coining.

4.  In addition you will need a long "pin Punch" of about 3/16" or 7/32" diameter of sufficient length to allow 'knocking' the Fully swaged/coined case out of the Sizing die.  

5.  Also a 'suitable weight' hammer to use with the punch.

The Press used should be strong enough to allow forcing the base of the cartridge into the Sizing Die all the way to the Rim, as a minimum, and preferably also Coin the .070" Hornet Rim down to Stevens .050" Thickness.

An RCBS "JR-3" Press is the minimum to form the Base (repeated incremental adjustments of the Sizing die are needed to size the base, involving multiple 'top of ram movement' cycles to complete each case).

An RCBS "RC" Press is the minimum that will also Coin the Rim to Thickness (I have done it in one cycle, but find two or three repeats are more consistent, the die is NOT adjusted once the proper .

To be Continued: Chev. William
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2014 at 2:54pm by Chev. William »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #24 - Jul 11th, 2014 at 2:43pm
Print Post  
Continuing my reply;
. distance from Die to Ram is found.

With the RCBS "RC" press, I still need to use my full upper body weight and both hands and arms on the press handle/arm to complete the Size/coin operation, which includes rising form my chair to accomplish the final ram movement to the Final full up position squeezing the rim between the top of the "Fender Washer" and the bottom of the Carbide Die.

The Sizing and coining will do two things that will need to be addressed in following operations:
A.  A 'roll' of displaced brass will be squeezed between die bottom and top of rim and will need to be removed form the formed case.
B.  The Rim diameter will expand due to the coining operation, possibly asymmetrically and will need to be reduced to proper concentric diameter to fit the Rim Rebate in the Chambered Barrel and the Shell Holder for loading cartridges.

I have also found that Expanding the .22 Hornet case neck and Shoulder area, to .250" inside diameter, BEFORE Sizing or Trimming yields the most consistent sized cases for later trimming to length. 

The formed cases seem to come out around 1.380" to 1.360" overall length so will need to be trimmed to length before use.  I have also found trimming AFTER rim Diameter and thickness is corrected yields more consistent final case lengths.

Several Trimming methods have been tried and most will work.  A Lyman Universal Case Trimmer with a power adapted cutter shaft seems to be the Quickest, while the Lee Case length Gauge/cutter and a Lee three Jaw case holder with power Stem are slightly slower and may need tool custom adjustment to clear the internal case contours.
A Forster-Applet Case trimmer also yields accurate case lengths but is the slowest as it is hand cranked and Requires consistent rim dimensions to function properly .

Case internal contours vary between Manufacturers and seem to also vary over time with early ones differing form later ones of the same maker.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2014 at 3:02pm by Chev. William »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #25 - Jul 11th, 2014 at 2:56pm
Print Post  
[quote author=3A313C2F2E303535303834590 link=1400808255/24#24 date=1405104202]Continuing my reply:
With the RCBS "RC" press, I still need to use my full upper body weight and both hands and arms on the press handle/arm to complete the Size/coin operation, which includes rising form my chair to accomplish the final ram movement to the Final full up position squeezing the rim between the top of the "Fender Washer" and the bottom of the Carbide Die.

The Sizing and coining will do two things that will need to be addressed in following operations:
A.  A 'roll' of displaced brass will be squeezed between die bottom and top of rim and wil lnee dto be removed form the formed case.
B.  The Rim diameter will expand due to the coining operation, possibly asymmetrically and will need to be reduced to proper concentric diameter to fit the Rim Rebate in the Chambered Barrel and the Shell Holder for loading cartridges.

I have also found that Expanding the .22 Hornet case neck and Shoulder area, to .250" inside diameter, BEFORE Sizing or Trimming yields the most consistent sized cases for later trimming to length. 

The formed cases seem to come out around 1.380" to 1.360" overall length so will need to be trimmed to length before use.  I have also found trimming AFTER rim Diameter and thickness is corrected yields more consistent final case lengths.

Several Trimming methods have been tried and most will work.  A Lyman Universal Case Trimmer with a power adapted cutter shaft seems to be the Quickest, while the Lee Case length Gauge/cutter and a Lee three Jaw case holder with power Stem are slightly slower and my need tool custom adjustment to clear the internal case contours.
A Forster-Applet Case trimmer also yields accurate case lengths but is the slowest as it is hand cranked and Requires consistent rim dimensions to function properly.

Case internal contours vary between Manufacturers and seem to also vary over time in the same maker.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #26 - Jul 11th, 2014 at 4:29pm
Print Post  
I have reformed various lots of Hornet cases with differing results:

New PPU cases have more internal taper than others but yield the most Good final Formed and Trimmed cases.

Used R-P Cases have slightly less internal taper length but slightly smaller internal web to wall junction diameter, they 'stick on the tip of a 7/32 Diameter Pin Punch when driving them out of the sizing die. 

Used WW, Winchester, and Western Cases all have the lower height of internal taper but do not stick on my 7/32 Pin punch, however the used cases seem to split more often in the expansion step, possibly due to the firing and resizing history.

Subsequent to the above results, I 'ground the tip of my 7/32 Pin Punch ot a slight taper and edge radius and that seems to greatly reduce the Sticking Case incidents.

I have had to modify the 'nose contour' of my Custom .250ALRM Lee Case length gauge to allow it to work with the internal tapers of the cases.  Before modification, the gauge stem would jam in the taper before reaching the actual proper length of case in trimming.   Modifications was accomplished by chucking the gauge in a Battery powered drill motor and using a fine Mill file to taper the nose of the gauge so it would clear the internal case taper, by 'trial and error' fitting and re-chucking/power filing until it would trim to proper length and NOT jam or friction heat in the process. 
I presume all the Lee Trim Gauge pins will need the same modifications to get them to trim to proper lengths.  This may be due to the fact that these cases have been Swaged down in OD, hence down in ID, so 'standard dimension' gauges no longer fit the case internals.

Similarly, Custom Lyman and Forster Trimmer pilots had to be ordered to fit the cases as formed.

The "McMaster-Carr" supplied "#8 Cap screw combo Drill and Counterbore Tool" is working Very Well, but I have to use a slow, gentle, feed as it is sharpened to cut Steel, rather than Brass.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spud
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 524
Location: Australia Oz
Joined: Feb 24th, 2005
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #27 - Jul 12th, 2014 at 12:38am
Print Post  
Chev, thanks for the detailed description of the process you use to form the case rims. That's really helped me. I'll get back to you if I run into a problem.
Thanks again, regards Spud
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chev. William
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 181
Joined: Sep 14th, 2013
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #28 - Jul 14th, 2014 at 2:18pm
Print Post  
Spud, and all interested readers:
Spent Yesterday and this morning working to get my "PhotoBucket" account back and running again, in the process apparently lost the previously used links to the posted photos.

But I did get a new photo of my .25 Stevens RF/CF case forming project uploaded and titled so here is the link:
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
This photo is a cropped detail of a larger image and shows: a fired .22PTL Blank (fired in one of the Adapter Cases I made); side and bottom views of the completed .25 Stevens CF case; bottom view of pilot drilled and counterbored RF case; bottom view of #2 Wire Size Drilled RF Case; Bottom view of Match Grade .22LR 'Freeland' chamber reamed RF Adapter Case; Side and bottom view of Adapter case with PTL blank inserted; side views of, in order .22 Caliber, Grade 1 (Gray) PTL, Grade 2 (Brown) PTL, Grade 3 (Green) PTL, and Grade 4 (Yellow) PTL Unfired Blanks.

Note that there is clearance between the .22 Rim and the Rebate border, I have NOT yet cut a notch in the borders as it seems my Stevens Favorite .22 Cal firing pin 'just clears' it when firing the blank, the rebate is .290"+ diameter.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Spud
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 524
Location: Australia Oz
Joined: Feb 24th, 2005
Re: Breach seating the .25 Stevens Rimfire
Reply #29 - Jul 18th, 2014 at 12:04am
Print Post  
Chev, been away from home for a couple of days and just got to read your last post. Thanks for the photo, very useful. I'm in the process of mounting my heavy duty Redding press onto a new work bench. Once that is complete it will be time for some serious case forming!
Spud
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint