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John Schluter
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Need Powder suggestion
Apr 23rd, 2014 at 12:05pm
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I'm trying to get a '74 Sharps to shoot lead bullets.  The barrel slugs 0.460" and I'm using Buffalo Arms 405 gr. hollow cavity bullets sized to 0.460"  The are cast from 20:1 lead:tin.  The chamber has no throat and I'm loading with a 0.020" jump.  First test was 5744 and 4759 using charges between 19 and 23 grains with no filler  The bullet was crimped.  The 5744 gave 6" groups across the range and the 4759 did the same except for 22 grains which gave a 3" group.  I will load up a test set at 1/2 grain intervals around 22 grains of 4759 to check out that load-BUT 3" at 100 yds. on a bench ain't that good.  Right now, I want to stay with smokeless and the Buffalo Arms bullet. I believe I need a bigger initial upset on the bullet for gas sealing and would like some sound suggestions on a powder choice that may be a good next step. When I can get all the bullets in the same hole with this combo, I'll move to 500 gr. bullets and then black powder.  Any good ideas for a powder choice are welcome.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #1 - Apr 23rd, 2014 at 1:54pm
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I think you should try a few more grains of those powders and lose the crimp. The 5744 won't burn clean at low pressure anyway and crimping can cause accuracy problems and isn't needed in a single shot. Some people have really good results with 12-13 grains of Unique with the 405. Of course, unless you have a pressing need for a light load, you should get serious and go ahead and use a 500 grain bullet and black powder now.
  
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RSW
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #2 - Apr 23rd, 2014 at 2:51pm
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John
The term '74 Sharps covers a lot of ground these days. Are you talking about an original Sharps, Shiloh, C. Sharps, one of the Italian versions perhaps. Rifles dubbed as '74 Sharps, run the gamut from high quality arms through semi-functional pieces of junk. Sights are another matter. Are you using the factory open sights, tang peep sight or scope?
oneatatime's advice to lose the crimp has merit. My suggestion would be to work with 4759, seat the bullet out until it just contacts the rifling and see if you can get it to shoot by varying the powder charge.
Good luck, please let us know what works for you.
  

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boats
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #3 - Apr 23rd, 2014 at 4:04pm
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Jump on the other guys good advice

Lot of things can affect results, most likely problem is the bullet and bullet fit. Next would be bullet pull then how much it engraves the lands on loading.

Least likely to cause trouble is 4759. I would stick with 4759 until you get 2 moa groups. Too many variables one time often hides the true problem.

Iron sight, big side hammer,  round forearm gun, in a large caliber using store bought bullets not tailored to the gun. 2 moa is pretty darn good, and that’s if it's a good Sharps and you have good eyesight.  Irons general rule is 1 moa lost to sighting error alone. You read about better groups rarely see them. I would not expect 1 MOA  out of a iron sighted 45/70 with any load. 

Only exception to the 4759 advice is it's been discontinued, might be better off working with 4227 which is going to stay in production and hardly any different than 4759 burn rate and results.  I bet 75 % of the shooters on this board use 4227 or 4759 for cast bullet loads.

Boats
  
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John Schluter
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #4 - Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:17pm
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Thanks to all ya'll.  I do plan to lose the crimp.  The gun is a vintage 74 with a re-barrel job in the long past.  Number of grooves, bore and groove diameter suggest a Gatling gun barrel.The sights are a long range tang sight and a windage adjustable globe up front.  I plan to add a large diameter Hadley disc for older eyes, as well.  I wasn't to play with jump until the other bigger players had been worked through, but I could just as easily change to zero jump for all the test work.  And I'll see if 4227 is available but continue with 4759 and expand the range.  BUT, this brings up another question.  Does anyone know of someone tuning the NON-set triggers on a Sharps???  Or of a procedure with enough detail to be useful?  Because this trigger desperately needs refinement.
  
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boats
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #5 - Apr 23rd, 2014 at 10:10pm
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John,

Rifles I shoot Black and Smokless I almost always use two molds. Black will bump up on firing. Smokless with light pressure loads, that are safe in old rifles, don't have much bump, proper bullet is larger, as much as .002. Mold throwing for Black can get away with bore size, needs larger grease groves to carry more more lube.

45/70 one problem with .460 bores and smokeless is oversize bullets may be difficult to chamber. Very common Trapdoor problem, not so good with Smokeless powders much better with black due to bullet fit.   

Sounds like a interesting rifle, keep us posted

Boats
  
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Turret1BB63
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #6 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 9:43am
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IMR 4198 is also a great choice for 'Nitro for Black' loads. I have used as little as 23 grains with a 405 grain bullet in my 45-70 plinking loads. Good Luck!
  

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John Boy
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #7 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 10:15am
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Quote:
Any good ideas for a powder choice are welcome.

Yes - Black powder instead of smokeless
And due to the large metplat on the 405 HB, seating it 0.020 off the leading bore cuts with a crimped case - the bullet is not being presented to the center axis of the bore

Buy some Paul Jones Postell & Creedmoor cast & lubed bullets ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Load with 70gr FFg powder and the case bell crimped only to remove the bell.  COL so the ogive is touching the leading bore cuts or engraved to be able to thumb seat.

Results?  Out of 25 shots @ 100yds - 14 bullets in the ragged hole with vernier & globe sights
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


     
  
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boats
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #8 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 10:45am
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John Boy has given a very good example of what to expect from a first class outfit well handled and loaded properly. Long run performance too, only thing that counts in matches is what it can do all day long..

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argie1891
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #9 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 10:48am
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now I gota say the above group is what I call a wallet group. I have several and hope for more at every trip to the range. argie1891
  

if you think you have it figured out  then you just dont understand
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John Schluter
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #10 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 11:42am
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Thanks for the help.  I'll set COL to engrave the bullet slightly and expand the 5744 and 4759 range upward looking for the sweet spot. I'll have to stay with the 405 gr. 0.460 diameter bullets until I can start casting and get a custom mold to give me a 0.460" plus finished diameter in a long range 500 plus grain bullet.  Then I'll try the black powders when I need to annoy myself even more.
  
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bohemianway
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #11 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:53pm
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I just stopped by the powder "pusher" yesterday and he had a new shipment of 4lb 4759 for $80 so I picked one up. However I use 4198 in the 45-70 for reasonable results. Check the land depth. I have had Borchardts that would only do well with black due to the shallow groove depth.

Charles
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Need Powder suggestion
Reply #12 - Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:56pm
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Attached are the group sizes after testing powders using a 490 grain 20:1 alloy Lyman 457658 mould using Winchester primers, Remington cases, with a COAL of 2.910" that were 0.010 off the lands with a factory crimp:

23.5 grains SR4759:   5 shot group size: 1.835" 1,257 fps
24.6 grains XMP5744: 5 shot group size: 1.142" 1,186 fps
47.0 grains IMR3031:  5 shot group size: 2.308" 1,704 fps
44.0 grains Varget:      5 shot group size: 2.471" 1,434 fps


Shot in a CPA Stevens 44 1/2 with a RKS barrel with a MVA Buffalo Soule sight and Lyman 17A front sight @ 100 yards.
IMR3031 is a heavy hunting load and it kicks like a mule.
« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2014 at 1:29pm by Schuetzendave »  
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