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Dr. F.W.Mann Martini (Read 10957 times)

stra8shooter Ex Member	Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Apr 12^th, 2014 at 5:07pm	Print Post
	Recently purchased 45/70 Martini.


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Reg Full Member Offline Posts: 180 Location: Wray Colorado Joined: Apr 28^th, 2009	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #1 - Apr 12^th, 2014 at 5:51pm	Print Post
	You indicate this was owned by Dr. Mann. Can you say when he owned it ? Any story connected with it ?


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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #2 - Apr 12^th, 2014 at 7:09pm	Print Post
	Dr. Mann had many of his rifles re-barrelled by either Pope or Zischang. Are there any markings on the barrel to give an indication of who made the barrel? Harry


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J.Francis Full Member Offline Posts: 145 Location: Pownal, Vermont Joined: Nov 20^th, 2011	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #3 - Apr 13^th, 2014 at 7:08am	Print Post
	The rams horn decorations on your buttstock and forend are signatures of Floyd Butler, a very talented gunsmith from Vermont. Nice rifle!


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Reg Full Member Offline Posts: 180 Location: Wray Colorado Joined: Apr 28^th, 2009	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #4 - Apr 13^th, 2014 at 8:07am	Print Post
	Guess what I was saying is how do you know Mann owned it. Not doubting it for one minute but I have never seen pictures of any of Mann's rifles especially as nice as this one. Do you know the chambering ?


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stra8shooter Ex Member	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #5 - Apr 13^th, 2014 at 9:17am	Print Post
	I purchased this rifle from a collector in Westwood Mass. He bought it at auction in Canton Mass 40+ years ago where it was advertised as being previously owned by Dr. Mann. There are no markings on the barrel that has a right hand twist and chambered in what appears to be a shortened 45-70. Cases needed to be trimmed .030. I also received a copy of the Mann family album but could not find a photo of him with this particular rifle.


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Gone Fly Fishing Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2071 Joined: Feb 26^th, 2007	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #6 - Apr 14^th, 2014 at 6:36am	Print Post
	Why would Franklin Mann M.D. have his off-hand schuetzen rifle outfitted with a sling swevel for and aft? Not familiar that such aids were permitted in match shooting in the traditional style. 45-70 was not a commonly go to cartridge for schuetzen folks of Franklin Mann's notarity. C.M.M.


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7530 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #7 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 11:21am	Print Post
	I am with Creedmore on this one. Boats


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Reg Full Member Offline Posts: 180 Location: Wray Colorado Joined: Apr 28^th, 2009	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #8 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 7:09pm	Print Post
	Anyone have any idea when these Martini actions started showing up here in the US? I know Pope had something to do with a few of them in the early 30's but Mann died ??? Before 1910 ?? Also the rear sight, any ideas when production started ? When was Floyd Butler active ?? Just wondering.


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fallingblock ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 633 Location: Wisconsin Joined: Apr 16^th, 2004	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #9 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 9:15pm	Print Post
	C. Patt of Alma Wisconsin used Swiss Tainer Martini actions in the 1880s. I think John Meunier of Milwaukee may have have used some also. The swivels are for carrying the rifle to and from the range not for shooting. Cheers, Laurie

	Cheers, Laurie ASSRA Secretary & Archivist
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1183 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #10 - Apr 15^th, 2014 at 10:15pm	Print Post
	Dr Mann died in 1916 for whatever that is worth. I have not found any references to him as a competitive target shooter although he was a tireless shooting experimenter, publishing his book The Bullet's Flight in 1909.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15996 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #11 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 1:31pm	Print Post
	Sling swivels were often added at some point, and in this case may not have been on the rifle initially. But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. Almost every German Schuetzen rifle I've ever seen had sling swivels, and they were all fine offhand rifles. I'd be more puzzled on the choice of calibers for an offhand rifle. Not many .45-70 calibers found in this configuration. But again, it doesn't change who might have owned it or built it. As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't.

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Gone Fly Fishing Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2071 Joined: Feb 26^th, 2007	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #12 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:32pm	Print Post
	Quote: But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. That's easy for you to say, but if you were to be the owner of same, I seem to think you would be a bit more discriminating, at least hoped so. Quote: As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't. Provenance is never hearsay inference, or third party unsupported declarations, but rather is verifiable, documented, and from a bonafide reliable source all of which is missing in this instance.


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Gone Fly Fishing Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2071 Joined: Feb 26^th, 2007	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #13 - Apr 16^th, 2014 at 4:23pm	Print Post
	Quote: Guess what I was saying is how do you know Mann owned it. Not doubting it for one minute but I have never seen pictures of any of Mann's rifles especially as nice as this one. Do you know the chambering ? I am, from the beginning of the post, doubting that it was Franklin Mann's personal rifle. The process goes like this; You " rule out " all assertion such as is presented here, unless and until, there is sufficient uncontrovertible evidence that allows you to "rule in" the assertion. A 40 year old self serving assertion by the gun's seller is not uncontrovertile evidence in my opinion. C.M.M.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 15996 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini Reply #14 - Apr 17^th, 2014 at 12:31pm	Print Post
	Gone Fly Fishing wrote on Apr 16^th, 2014 at 3:32pm: Quote: But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. That's easy for you to say, but if you were to be the owner of same, I seem to think you would be a bit more discriminating, at least hoped so. Quote: As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't. Provenance is never hearsay inference, or third party unsupported declarations, but rather is verifiable, documented, and from a bonafide reliable source all of which is missing in this instance. Yes, it is easy to say for me or anyone. It matters not if Mann really owned the gun. What matters is what a particular gun is priced at, and if the price reflects a famous person's ownership, then that needs to be confirmed through good documentation. The configuration of the gun, or it's condition doesn't matter when it comes to provenance. If it was a Schuetzen style rifle in .45-120, it wouldn't change who owned it, so configuration doesn't matter. As I said above; you either have the provenance or you don't. If it's not well documented, then it's just a nice story.

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