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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dr. F.W.Mann Martini (Read 11043 times)
stra8shooter
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Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Apr 12th, 2014 at 5:07pm
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Recently purchased 45/70 Martini.
  
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2014 at 5:51pm
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You indicate this was owned by Dr. Mann.  Can you say when he owned it ?  Any story connected with it ?
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2014 at 7:09pm
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Dr. Mann had many of his rifles re-barrelled by either Pope or Zischang. Are there any markings on the barrel to give an indication of who made the barrel?

Harry
  
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J.Francis
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #3 - Apr 13th, 2014 at 7:08am
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The rams horn decorations on your buttstock and forend are signatures of Floyd Butler, a very talented gunsmith from Vermont. Nice rifle!
  
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #4 - Apr 13th, 2014 at 8:07am
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Guess what I was saying is how do you know Mann owned it.  Not doubting it for one minute but I have never seen pictures of any of Mann's rifles especially as nice as this one.
Do you know the chambering ?
  
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stra8shooter
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #5 - Apr 13th, 2014 at 9:17am
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I purchased this rifle from a collector in Westwood Mass. He bought it at auction in Canton Mass 40+ years ago where it was advertised as being previously owned by Dr. Mann. There are no markings on the barrel that has a right hand twist and chambered in what appears to be a shortened 45-70. Cases needed to be trimmed .030. I also received a copy of the Mann family album but could not find a photo of him with this particular rifle.
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2014 at 6:36am
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Why would Franklin Mann M.D. have his off-hand schuetzen rifle outfitted with a sling swevel for and aft?  Not familiar that such aids were permitted in match shooting in the traditional style.  45-70 was not a commonly go to cartridge for schuetzen folks of Franklin Mann's notarity. 

C.M.M.
  
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boats
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 11:21am
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I am with Creedmore on this one.

Boats
  
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 7:09pm
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Anyone have any idea when these Martini actions started showing up here in the US?
I know Pope had something to do with a few of them in the early 30's but Mann died ???  Before 1910 ??
Also the rear sight, any ideas when production started ?
When was Floyd Butler active ??
Just wondering.
  
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fallingblock
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 9:15pm
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C. Patt of Alma Wisconsin used Swiss Tainer Martini actions in the 1880s. I think John Meunier of Milwaukee may have have used some also. 

The swivels are for carrying the rifle to and from the range not for shooting.

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RSW
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 10:15pm
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Dr Mann died in 1916 for whatever that is worth.
I have not found any references to him as a competitive target shooter although he was a tireless shooting experimenter, publishing his book The Bullet's Flight in 1909.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #11 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 1:31pm
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Sling swivels were often added at some point, and in this case may not have been on the rifle initially. But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. Almost every German Schuetzen rifle I've ever seen had sling swivels, and they were all fine offhand rifles.
I'd be more puzzled on the choice of calibers for an offhand rifle. Not many .45-70 calibers found in this configuration. But again, it doesn't change who might have owned it or built it. 
As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't.
  

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creedmoormatch
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #12 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 3:32pm
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Quote:
But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. 


That's easy for you to say, but if you were to be the owner of same, I seem to think you would be a bit more discriminating, at least hoped so. 

Quote:
 
As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't.


Provenance is never hearsay inference, or third party unsupported declarations, but rather is verifiable, documented, and from a bonafide reliable source all of which is missing in this instance.
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #13 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 4:23pm
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Guess what I was saying is how do you know Mann owned it.  Not doubting it for one minute but I have never seen pictures of any of Mann's rifles especially as nice as this one.
Do you know the chambering ?


I am, from the beginning of the post, doubting that it was Franklin Mann's personal rifle.  The process goes like this;  You " rule out " all assertion such as is presented here, unless and until, there is sufficient uncontrovertible evidence that allows you to "rule in" the assertion.

A 40 year old self serving assertion by the gun's seller is not uncontrovertile evidence in my opinion.

C.M.M.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Dr. F.W.Mann Martini
Reply #14 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 12:31pm
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Quote:
Quote:
But even if they are original, I they wouldn't concern me as to whether Mann or anyone would have them. 


That's easy for you to say, but if you were to be the owner of same, I seem to think you would be a bit more discriminating, at least hoped so. 

Quote:
 
As for ownership or who built any older rifle; provenance. You either have it, or you don't.


Provenance is never hearsay inference, or third party unsupported declarations, but rather is verifiable, documented, and from a bonafide reliable source all of which is missing in this instance.


Yes, it is easy to say for me or anyone. It matters not if Mann really owned the gun. What matters is what a particular gun is priced at, and if the price reflects a famous person's ownership, then that needs to be confirmed through good documentation. The configuration of the gun, or it's condition doesn't matter when it comes to provenance. If it was a Schuetzen style rifle in .45-120, it wouldn't change who owned it, so configuration doesn't matter.
As I said above; you either have the provenance or you don't. If it's not well documented, then it's just a nice story.
  

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