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Cat_Whisperer
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Precision weighing of powder
Mar 23rd, 2014 at 5:47pm
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a) how precise is good enough?  I.e.: just how small an error will make a measurable difference on the target?  (in something like .375 Win or .405 Win)

b) What are your preferred methods and equipment for weighing out match quality loads?

(smokeless powder)

  

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JLouis
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #1 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 9:19pm
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CW I have always felt in order for one to try to reach perfection the components required as in your case need to be as perfect as is humanly possible. If one does not try to eliminate any and all variables right out the gate where would one start to look to identify any goal failures.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #2 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 9:22pm
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With ball powders, +/- .05 grain, with 4227, +/- .1 gr. You might get closer than that with 4227 if your very consistant. That's about as good as it gets.

I've used a Redding powder measure with the pistol insert for 30 years for charges of 20 gr. or less. For charges up to 35 gr. I made a 1/2" diameter insert for the Redding.

If you don't mine using the B&M, it will beat any measure with 4759 and do as good or better than all the rest of the powder measures.

JMO,

Frank
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #3 - Mar 23rd, 2014 at 10:28pm
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frnkeore wrote on Mar 23rd, 2014 at 9:22pm:
If you don't mine using the B&M, it will beat any measure with 4759 and do as good or better than all the rest of the powder measures.

Frank


The only thing I use mine for, but I DO mind the nuisance of having to pour the powder through a funnel to get it into the case.

My Redding I otherwise prefer, except with Unique the rotor binds due (I guess) to jamming by those flat grains.  Any way to alleviate this?   
  
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westerner
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #4 - Mar 24th, 2014 at 12:36am
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My scales are only accurate to about a tenth of a grain. My old electric scale has to be constantly re-zeroed. So, tenth of a grain for me. BP, seldom weigh. Load straight out of my Redding BR. 

          Joe.
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #5 - Mar 24th, 2014 at 8:21am
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I use a ball powder (Scot 4100) and a Harrell schuetzen measure. With those two using good measure technique I can keep my standard deviation to 5 F.P.S. Once I have the setting for my measure I record it and that is what I come back to when I reset the measure. I record the weight almost as an after thought. I have never had good luck with pre-loading cases and load the same case at the bench. Once you have a routine worked out it doesn’t take much more time than putting in a fresh case. 

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #6 - Mar 24th, 2014 at 3:47pm
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I use a RCBS 10-10 scale to accurately measure and verify powder weights to 0.1 grain (and I calibrate it for every use). With care this scale can measure to 0.1 grain consistently wereas most balance beam powder scales measure +/- 0.2 grains.

If a powder measure consitently throws weights to 0.1 grain I will use it. However for coarser powder grains the powder measures do not consistently throw the same weight. For fine powders I will use a powder measure after I verify it's consistency. For powders that do not throw well in a powder measure, I weigh each load on my RCBS 10-10 scale.
  
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RoyB
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #7 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 3:24pm
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Back when I was shooting lots of Benchrest with 22PPC, 6PPC and 6BR, friend of mine and I drove ourselves crazy with the question....Weight or volume...what gives best accuracy. Seeing that ALL benchrest shooters never weight their charges, and all use precision powder measures to drop loads by volume.

We tried hundreds of rounds both dropped by volume and weighed as close as humanly possible and shot using double blind methods. In the end we could tell no difference in accuracy. 

And we were in the 30g weight range where an extra grain or two of powder should make a bigger difference than the same amount to a 70+ charge.

SD did not vary at all with either method.

We spread white bed sheets out infront of our shooting benches to see how much unburnt powder was simply blown out of the barrel. At the end of the day we gathered it all up and put a match to it and sure enough, it WAS unburnt!

Lots of fun running tests like this.
  

Roy B
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John Boy
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #8 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 5:17pm
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Weigh my smokeless charges to 0.x plus or minus xx

For black powder, I follow the advice of Frank Monikowski
Guys, 
I'm also going to weigh in my 2 cents. When I started shooting these cartridge rifles about 20 years ago, I weighed powder, cases, and bullets. After a few years, I ended up just weighing the bullets and the powder only to set up the measure. For at least the last 10 years I've not measured the weights of individual powder charges other then as a spot check. 
The measures I use are Lyman 55 (2), for 38 and 32 caliber. And the old Hollywood for 40 / 45 calibers. I also use a Belding and Mull for my LR muzzleloaders. I find the B+M the most accurate but the others adequate and capable of +/- 0.3 gr or slightly less on average. 

Since switching over to Swiss powder when it became available around 8 years ago, I look for a average amount of compression to determine the powder weight to set the measure to. I also use Schuetzen FG powder for reduced recoil / velocity loads. 

I load for both myself and wife. She makes wads, lubes and weighs bullets. At the risk of sounding like a braggart, between us we have 40 National Records in Open, Military, Scope, Muzzleloader and Womens catagories for BP Target rifle. And 10 National Championships between Canada and the U.S. in likewise catagories. We don't shoot silhouette. 

To me, the bullet is the most important. Weight, design, appearance and alloy. 
Powder kept around 1/2 grain total variance = good enough. Being able to break a shot down the center, call it and read wind and mirage, priceless...... 

Now this is going to upset some, but we cannot measure / weigh ourselves into the winners circle. It takes range time. I feel much of the time spent at the loading bench would be better spent at the range. I'll grant that weighing everything to a nanograin gives a sense of confidence in the ammo, but perfect ammo won't put the bullet into the center by itself. Frank Monikowski
  
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RoyB
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #9 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:10pm
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One of the Single Shot or Black Powder magazines just had a whole article about how to get under 2" groups. And it basically boiled down to exactly what Frank just said.........

I like that...."You can't measure /weight yourself into the winners circle!"

Gonna have this made up into bumper stickers!... Wink
  

Roy B
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 12:10am
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CW:

   Trying to do everything as well as "humanly possible" is bound to be inefficient.  If you just do everything "good enough" that will be fine.   I'm guessing you are looking for what is "good enough".
    An example:    A 1 gr difference in charge weight for big BP ctgs will make a velocity difference of 5-7 fps.   I weighed a couple dozen ca. 50 gr charges from my old Hollywood measure and found the SD was around 0.15 gr.  (You can't do this experiment with your powder scale, you need a good balance.) This corresponds to ca 1 fps -- insignificant.   (You have to use some technique here, you can't just crank the handle and get that.)   If you go thru this line of reasoning, you will be able to figure out what is "good enough".
    I was given a B&M powder measure some years ago, and have never used it as it is SO inconvenient.   OTOH, I think the ritual required to operate it forces one to dump  uniform charges.  That is probably why some people swear by the B&M.   I am content merely to swear AT it.

CHRIS
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2014 at 9:56am
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Chris -  yup.  >>Trying to do everything as well as "humanly possible" is bound to be inefficient.  If you just do everything "good enough" that will be fine.   I'm guessing you are looking for what is "good enough".<<

It is a year long or so project.  Good enough IS good enough.  How much IS good enough???

A friend of mine did a bunch of tune up for me on a Rem 700 in 7mm RM.  He said that any of the individual things wouldn't be noticable - but the cumulative effect really helped!  (He also shot on the Olympic Pistol team.)

Great input from a great bunch of y'all - THANKS!
  

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Mick B
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #12 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 6:14am
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While we are on the subject of the effects of different powder charges affecting muzzle velocity I did a small experiment this morning to see if I could gain an accuracy advantage by upping the powder charge in my 45/90 from 77 gr of PP Wano to 80 gr.
The results were as follows.
77 gr weighed.
1st shot 1249 fps
2nd   "   1246 fps
3rd   "   1258 fps
4th   "   1259 fps
5th   "   1257 fps
Average  1253.8 fps  spread 13 fps

80 gr weighed.
1st shot 1243 fps
2nd  "    1250 fps
3rd  "    1241  fps
4th  "    1250  fps
5th  "    1241  fps
Average 1245 fps   spread  9 fps
Result, 8.8 fps slower using 3 gr more powder , Any ideas ?
Mike.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #13 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 9:03am
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My guess is that you fertilized the lawn in front of the bench. Try laying an old sheet in front of the bench and see how much unburned powder there is in the sheet.

40 Rod
  
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Re: Precision weighing of powder
Reply #14 - Apr 2nd, 2014 at 10:45am
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That is curious Mick.  I've heard of people loosing velocity by adding more powder, but have never experienced it myself, even with Fg in large cases with powder charges over 100gr.  How heavy is your bullet and how long is your barrel?

Regardless, absolute velocity isn't all that important.  If the accuracy is good and you have ten shot velocity SD's in the single digits then you have arrived IMHO.

Chris.
  
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