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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Speed of Sound Turbulence? (Read 19687 times)
Bobduck
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Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Mar 17th, 2014 at 12:35pm
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I've read that having a bullet drop through the speed of sound velocity can disrupt the bullets flight.

Anyone know what research and scientific conclusions have been made on this topic?

Thanks.

Bobduck
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #1 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 3:12pm
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Am very interested myself, for my 200-yard 38-55 loads.

But I can tell you with considerable experience that going sub-sonic w/ my flintlock 'roundball' loads really disrupts the load's inherent accuracy, i.e., versus the accuracy as observed at the shorter ranges where still super-sonic.
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Bobduck
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #2 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 4:19pm
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Lefty38-55 wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 3:12pm:
Am very interested myself, for my 200-yard 38-55 loads.

But I can tell you with considerable experience that going sub-sonic w/ my flintlock 'roundball' loads really disrupts the load's inherent accuracy, i.e., versus the accuracy as observed at the shorter ranges where still super-sonic.


I was working up loads yesterday for my 38 55 at 100 yards.  I kept reducing the powder and shooting groups while chronographing.  It seemed as though the groups improved once I got below the speed of sound by a small but measureable amount.  Of course, there could be other factor producing the same thing.  The bullets were passing through or close to the speed of sound during flight.  Chronograph showed some had M.V. above and some below speed of sound when fired.  But when I got consistently below the speed of sound groups improved.

I've done some searching on the internet on this subject and can find information that says you should try to keep your velocities above the speed of sound for the entire time of the bullet's flight or else start under the speed of sound.  But nothing on how much the bullet is influenced by going from above to below the speed of sound while in flight.

B'duckie
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2014 at 4:52pm by Bobduck »  
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harry_eales
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 4:53pm
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Transonic turbulence was something the 'old Timers' knew nothing about as it wasn't discovered until the 1940's when aircraft approached supersonic capability.
Scientists knew there were problems when aircraft went out of control, suffered severe vibration or disintegrated in flight.

This aerodynamic effect has an influence on bullets fired from rifles especially those fired by the likes of ASSRA members which are in many cases supersonic when leaving the barrel but enter the transitional velocity between supersonic and subsonic flight downrange. The movement of shockwaves backwards along the bullet sides as it decelerates causes cavitation with grease groove bullets on every single grease groove. It appears that this has much less effect on smooth sided bullets as used by the 
paper patched bullets weight for weight if of exactly the same bullet shape. Cavitation is also caused by the flat or hollow base that also causes deceleration, hence the use of boat-tailed bullets in more modern rounds. What we really need is another Dr Mann with enough money to have a supersonic wind tunnel and the necessary expertise to study this problem in great detail and write about it afterwards. Any rich volunteers. 

Harry.
  
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:14pm
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The trasonic range is generally considered to be betwween .8 and 1.2 the speed of sound. If 1120 fps is considered to be the speed of sound then, that's approx 900 - 1340 fps. In that range, the center of pressure changes as well as the way the wake forms behind the bullet. What some people don't realize is that the shape of the bullet also plays into it.

As the air follows the contour of the bullet nose, it has to speed up and in that area it will atain a higher velocy than after the flow becomes parallel also, the flow over and sharp edges (such as large meplats) increases velocity and both of those create localized shock waves and/or more turblent flow. All these things interfer with the bullets aerodynamic flight and can cause the bullet to pitch or yaw. It's a transitional range and can vary at both ends with the air temperiture ( (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)).

I believe that your better served with more of a spitzer shape when going through this range, than a larger meplat type nose shape because of the large meplats ability to create more localized effects.

If you'll read about the research leading up to the Bell X-1's creation, you'll learn a lot about the transonic range.

Frank

  

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JLouis
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #5 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:56pm
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I think there are those who let it get into their heads to much and it can become detrimental to their overall performance. In looking at the groups out to hundred yards shot by John D. Kelly and others back in the day it did not seem to have any ill effects with their overall performance. There are still those today who shoot in the 1250fps muzzle velocity range out to 200 yds. and have set several National Records by doing so, one being Bernie Connon from Cottage Grove Oregon. 

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Bobduck
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #6 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:14pm
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JLouis wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 5:56pm:
I think there are those who let it get into their heads to much and it can become detrimental to their overall performance. In looking at the groups out to hundred yards shot by John D. Kelly and others back in the day it did not seem to have any ill effects with their overall performance. There are still those today who shoot in the 1250fps muzzle velocity range out to 200 yds. and have set several National Records by doing so, one being Bernie Connon from Cottage Grove Oregon. 

JLouis

This is why I brought up this topic.  Putting my 38 55 data into a ballistics program the bullet goes subsonic at about 150 yds with an mv of 1250.  Question is how much does this effect accuracy.  Maybe shooting 200 yards the effect isn't enough to matter.  But at 600 yards it is significant?  As you said I see many shooters shooting 1000 yds with 45 70 at 1200 to 1400 fps mv and doing well.  I was wondering HOW MUCH going subsonic effects accuracy.  Is it better to go subsonic all the way to eliminate the transition to subsonic and also have less wind drift vs the vertical spread at long ranges due to variations in muzzle velocity?

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JLouis
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #7 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 7:50pm
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I have no personal expertise nor any basic knowledge in regards to 1000yd. competition so I can't go there.

JLouis
  

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #8 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:32pm
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If I remember correctly, F.W.Mann writes that the disturbance from passing though the speed of sound is temporary and the bullet stabilizes shortly after.
  

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #9 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:43pm
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The transition through the transonic range doesn't mean that the bullet will be inaccurate but, with pitch and yaw, it will kill the ballistic coefficient during that time and have more overall wind drift than a fully stabilize bullet that starts and ends on either side of that range. 

If the bullet has enough rotational stibility after going through the transonic range, it will indeed pick up the wind drift advantage of subsonic flight, here the long range guys get the benefit.

Frank
  

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #10 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 8:52pm
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CW the concern the way I understand it is when the bullet goes subsonic prior to reaching the target, it's supersonic when it leaves the barrel. I tried the staying subsonic approach with my 32-40 and never achieved any success. 

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #11 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 9:01pm
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Some interesting background...

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #12 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:10pm
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Bobduck wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 12:35pm:
I've read that having a bullet drop through the speed of sound velocity can disrupt the bullets flight.

Anyone know what research and scientific conclusions have been made on this topic?

Thanks.

Bobduck


Passing through the transonic zone (app. 1.2 mach to .8 mach) does not, in itself, disrupt a bullet's flight.  However, passing through the transonic zone does set up the conditions under which a bullet may become dynamically unstable.  That is, the center of pressure may move forward of the center of mass but bullet will likely remain dynamically stable unless acted on by an external force - in our case, the wind.   

My personal experience is that bullets fired at 1300 fps mv can perform quite well at 200 yards on very low wind days.  The same bullets, fired at 1300 fps, show substantial dispersion at 200 yards on windy days.

The same bullets fired at 1450- 1500 fps mv show substantially less dispersion on windy days. 

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #13 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:12pm
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Interesting but bring it down to the practical level

32/40's can stay supersonic to 200 yards just. Most go sub sonic around target impact. How much and when depends on a lot. Bullet Weight Powder Charge Temperature Elevation and is the target actually 200 yards away.  Bullet going sub sonic right at impact has little effect. Even if not stable distance to impact is so short it's not important. I will bump my powder charge if I see oblong holes, but don't need to. just feel better if they are round.

38/55's with plain base bullets can't stay supersonic to 200 yards. If you start them sub sonic they are too slow for 200 yard shooting.

Longer than 200 yards no cast bullet is going to stay sub sonic.

Rim fires most think sub sonic all the way is more accurate.

So the only choice is do you use a 38/55 or 32/40 for 200 yard shooting.  Personally I don't think going under the sound barrier just before impact is a negative.  I do think if the recoil is managed with a heavy rifle 38/55 is the better offhand 200 yard cartridge.  32/40 is the one to use if the rifle is lighter and recoil is an issue. Wind the 38 has the advantage. It's a toss up and I use both. Get a rifle and condition one way or the other will favor one over the other.

And I am sure sub sonic rim fires are more accurate than supersonic.

One mans opinion take it or leave it.

Boats

  
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #14 - Mar 17th, 2014 at 10:12pm
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The soud barrier comes at a difficult speed to avoid, starting below 1080 fps certainly adds to rainbow trajectory for longer distance shooting, and is not really practical. 
  It is for .22 rimfire target ammo. I  choose lot #s that are entirely subsonic below 1080 FPS.  Borderline speed of sound lots that have some rounds with the audible crack dont group as well in my guns  I shoot it even up to 200 Meters though it drops about 2 feet more @ 200 M than target ammo that is about  80 fps faster , and on cold winter mornings it is extra wimpy
  
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