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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Speed of Sound Turbulence? (Read 19725 times)
Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #45 - Mar 29th, 2014 at 8:23pm
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Thank you Lefty,
  So you are sure it is a certain fact that the barrel flexes up and down because of gravity?
  

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JackHughs
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #46 - Mar 29th, 2014 at 8:33pm
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Jeff_Schultz wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:27pm:
Jack,
  Could you explain this simple theory a little further. Why does the barrel oscilate up and down instead of side to side or round and round?


Hi Jeff,

I think there are two inquiries here. The first is for more information on how positive compensation works and second asks why does the barrel vibrate up and down and not from side to side.

Varmint Al answers the first question much better than I ever could and his website has the added benefit of pictures and graphs but, I'll try.

Consider two rifles on side-by-side benches firing at the same target 200 yards away.  Rifle No. 1 has a muzzle velocity of 1450 fps and rifle No. 2 has a muzzle velocity of 2900 fps.  In order for bullets from both rifles to hit the same POA, the launch angle of rifle No. 1 has to be much greater that the launch angle of rifle No. 2.  We all know this to be true.

The exact same condition exists, on a much smaller scale, if there are variations in mv from the same rifle.  In order to strike the same POA, the slower bullets must be fired at a greater launch angle than the faster bullets.

This needed difference in launch angle can be secured only if all bullets exit the muzzle as the muzzle is moving upward. 

The answer to the second question is easy to state but beyond my ability explain in any detail.  Barrels do vibrate up and down, from side to side, and also move in torsion (they try to unwind.) However, the fundamental mode of vibration is up and down and this mode causes the greatest motion at the muzzle.  The other vibrations modes have a much smaller effect on the movement of the muzzle.

JackHughs
  

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Dr Tom
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #47 - Mar 30th, 2014 at 12:21pm
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The barrel vibrates horizontally in addition to vertically, but the amount is much smaller than the vertical because your shoulder (the support) is below the bore line. This produces a recoil torque (recoil force x distance from the center of the butt to the bore line)which causes the barrel to rise. The upward motion feeds energy to the vertical vibrations but not to the horizontal or the rotational.
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #48 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 1:01pm
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Jeff_Schultz wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:27pm:
Jack,
  Could you explain this simple theory a little further. Why does the barrel oscilate up and down instead of side to side or round and round?


THe barrel oscillates in an oval pattern, more so vertically than horizontally because of the action and stock influencing it.

  

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Lefty38-55
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #49 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 6:55pm
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Cat_Whisperer wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 1:01pm:
Jeff_Schultz wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:27pm:
Jack,
  Could you explain this simple theory a little further. Why does the barrel oscilate up and down instead of side to side or round and round?

The barrel oscillates in an oval pattern, more so vertically than horizontally because of the action and stock influencing it.

Just so you know Wink … no one seemed to believe ‘me’ – haha! - when I stated that barrels vibrate in the vertical plane due to gravity as the largest influence (less the shot fired). So I’ll quote Bill Calfee, who has written more than a few articles for Precision Shooting about barrels, barrel tuners, and barrel vibrations. In fact, he takes credit for introducing the world to barrel tuners via a 1994 article written about them, as recorded in PS magazine.

Thus I’ll quote him directly … emphasis mine Wink :

”A rifle barrel is usually discharged in a horizontal position ... this means that the forces of gravity influence the vibrations of the barrel. This means the bulk of the vibrations of a rifle barrel, when fired, are in a vertical plane.”

This is how a barrel vibrates:

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And NOT like this … 

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Get your bullets to depart the muzzle during the node ... and you'll have more inherent accuracy, specially for any long-distance rounds.
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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JLouis
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #50 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 7:34pm
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I believe this is what was being pointed out, maybe just in another manor. I think one can also see that that there is indeed more than just low extreme velocity spreads and SD's to achieve competitive match grade accuracy.
  

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Dr Tom
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #51 - Mar 31st, 2014 at 9:55pm
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Gravity is a tiny force compared to the upward recoil due to the bore line being well above the center of the butt plate. It snaps the barrel like a whip. Floating freely in outer space with no gravity involved, the barrel still rises sharply unless the support is directly behind the barrel. Remember the free pistols that looked like hack saws. Ever wonder why they were made that way? To keep the bore line down in the hand and not above it. MG42 had very little drop in the stock. Guess why. Ever shoot one full speed? Ah! You know why.

Here is a homework assignment. Head to the range at a time when nobody else is there. Go to the bench furthest to the left. Set your favorite schuetzen rifle on on your favorite rest, but on on its side with the barrel down range and the (assumed right-hand) cheek piece up. When you fire the rifle, the recoil will be to the right. Gravity will be down, except perhaps in certain neighborhoods in California. You will then have horizontal vibrations dominant. The vertical component, what there is of it, will not be due to gravity. It will be due to the rest being under the barrel instead of beside it as it would be in a fancier horizontal experiment. 

With the gun in its normal upright position, the mode shapes due to the rest and those due to the recoil are aligned vertically and therefore a bit stronger. Yes, they are in the same direction as gravity, but gravity plays a walk-on role with no lines to speak.

I do not recommend that you reverse the direction of the horizontal experiment if you are a lefty. The lower prong of your schuetzen butt plate will be very near your heart.

An additional point. The barrel does not deform into a single sine wave, but into a series of superimposed waves of specific, related wavelengths. If this were not true, stringed instruments would have no harmonic overtones, and our audio world would be a little less beautiful.

  
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