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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Speed of Sound Turbulence? (Read 19706 times)
joeb33050
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #15 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 2:30am
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I don't believe that bullet accuracy falls as it goes through the SOS. Shooting CF bullets at lower and lower speeds through 100 yard targets NEVER saw a small-big-small group as v varied.
I never found a lesser range where a 22rf, that was accurate at 100 yards, was inaccurate. If it shoots at 100, it shoots about proportionally as well at all lesser ranges-and I never found a lesser range where it went nuts. (I can't test this at my current range)
Mann shot to 175 yards through screens-see "Comparative 100 vs. 200 Yard Butts", plate 18, pg 204. He says nothing about the bullet accuracy falling then getting better-that I can find.

I don't think that bullets go nuts at SOS and then heal themselves.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #16 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 2:42am
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I think it's the wind. See the graph here
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The problem with these graphs is that the horizontal axis is backward. Turn it around and you see the drag coefficient change as speed goes DOWN, as it does after firing. 

So as speed goes down, drag goes up, then drops quick, then levels off much lower.

It would be more better to have the horizontal axis also in TIME. Anyone?

Wind drift is about velocity loss, and velocity loss is about drag. If drag goes down, velocity loss goes down and wind drift goes down. So, if the bullet goes transsonic AND there's wind, dind drift is LESS than if no transsonic.
  
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joeb33050
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #17 - Mar 18th, 2014 at 2:51am
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If you're shooting and holding off right for a wind from the right and if no transsonic, bullets hit center.

Everything the same but transsonic. For a tiny time, less drag, less velocity loss, less wind drift and the bullet hits to the RIGHT.

So, if this is right, then LR shooters in a given wind require LESS hold off on hotter days or at higher altitudes; because v increases and transonic happens further out.

200 yards? wind. 22rf? wind. There's no transsonic accuracy effect in no wind/tunnel with 22rf to ~100 yards.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #18 - Mar 19th, 2014 at 5:13pm
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Bobduck wrote on Mar 17th, 2014 at 6:14pm:

This is why I brought up this topic.  Putting my 38 55 data into a ballistics program the bullet goes subsonic at about 150 yds with an mv of 1250.  Question is how much does this effect accuracy.  Maybe shooting 200 yards the effect isn't enough to matter.  But at 600 yards it is significant?  As you said I see many shooters shooting 1000 yds with 45 70 at 1200 to 1400 fps mv and doing well.  I was wondering HOW MUCH going subsonic effects accuracy.  Is it better to go subsonic all the way to eliminate the transition to subsonic and also have less wind drift vs the vertical spread at long ranges due to variations in muzzle velocity?

B'duckie

Less wind drift when shooting out to 1000 yds while all the way subsonic?  Better do your homwork again - time of flight will be longer, so that means more wind drift.  Also ES will become much more critical as your trajectory will be more rainbow-like, so more vertical in the groups...
I  believe BPCR competition has conclusively proved that a heavy bullet launched at a supersonic MV will do best for long range with BP.  No theories, but results...
  
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boats
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #19 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 6:15am
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Throw the calculators away. Look at the score cards

Results win matches theory's don't.

Boats
  
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jlmurphy
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #20 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 5:01pm
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It is counter intuitive, but the wind drift is greater for 1300 fps than 1000 fps, and continues to increase until 1450 or so, study the ballistics tables. I dropped from 1300 fps to 1080 fps with my .40 - 65, the wind sensitivity was much better and my scores improved. The amount of powder necessary to push the bullet 220 fps faster was really surprising.
  
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #21 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 8:21pm
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It has been proven that slugs, as they pass back  from supersonic to subsonic, have a material shift in the center of pressure resulting in temporary upset. Frank Tirrill (sp) had a wonderful series of articles on the issue  complete with high speed photos.
The issue becomes important when this occurs near the target distance. After the instability the slug recovers.
All of these experiments by him were conducted with rimfire ammunition and it was at about the time, and I believe, contributing, to the fact that so much rimfire match ammunition is now subsonic.
  

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #22 - Mar 20th, 2014 at 8:29pm
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joeb33050 wrote on Mar 18th, 2014 at 2:42am:
I think it's the wind. See the graph here
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

The problem with these graphs is that the horizontal axis is backward. Turn it around and you see the drag coefficient change as speed goes DOWN, as it does after firing. 

So as speed goes down, drag goes up, then drops quick, then levels off much lower.

It would be more better to have the horizontal axis also in TIME. Anyone?

Wind drift is about velocity loss, and velocity loss is about drag. If drag goes down, velocity loss goes down and wind drift goes down. So, if the bullet goes transsonic AND there's wind, dind drift is LESS than if no transsonic.


If I may, a question. In the world of  cast bullet match shooting, has there been much in the way of experimenting with different ogive design relative to wind drift?
  

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Bobduck
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #23 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 4:39pm
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Consider these numbers from (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) online ballistics program.

Muzzle velocity - 1500 ft/sec, time of flight (1000 yds) 2.881 sec. Wind drift (10 mph at 90 degrees) 155.2 inches.

Muzzle velocity - 1000 ft/sec, time of flight (1000 yds) 3.623 sec. Wind drift (10 mph at 90 degrees) 109.6 inches.

Less drift at 1000 ft/sec than at 1500 ft/sec.

Basically, wind drift isn't a function of how long the bullet is in flight but rather how long it takes the bullet to get to the target minus how long it would take to get to the target in a vacuum. (no air resistance)

The mathematical formula is:  D = ws(T-t).
Where D is the drift of the bullet.
ws is the component of the wind speed perpendicular to the bullet path.
T is the time it actually takes the bullet to reach the target.
t the time it would take the bullet to reach the target in a vacuum.

The expression "T - t" is sometimes referred to as the "lag time".

To get the value of "t" just divide the range by the muzzle velocity.

At 1500 ft/sec t = 2.000 (3000/1500). At 1000 ft/sec t = 3.0 (3000/1000)

Therefore at 1500 ft/sec mv the lag time is .881 sec. (2.881 - 2.000).  At 1000 ft/sec mv the lag time is .623 sec (3.623 - 3.000)

10 m/hr = 176 in/sec. 

At 1000 ft/sec D = 176 x .623 = 109.6 in.
At 1500 ft/sec D = 176 X .881 = 155.0 in.

It's counter intuitive but real.  Bullets below the speed of sound have less "time lag" as they travel downrange so have less wind drift.

Sorry about the math, I can't help it, I'm a retired math and physics teacher.

B'duckie
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #24 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 6:40pm
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To explain one more element, the reason that a subsonic bullet has less lag time is because it is only traveling through the air and not pushing the shock wave that occures in supersonic flight. That shock wave takes a lot of power to push.

B'duckie, that is a excellent explaination with excellent math to go with it. I've tried to explain this to many, many people over the last 20 years and usually just get a blank look. I didn't know the math, just ballistic tables and later ballistic programs.

Frank
« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2014 at 6:47pm by frnkeore »  

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JLouis
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #25 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 6:40pm
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1000 foot seconds I don't believe would get the bullet to the 1000 yard target. If it indeed was able to low flying aircraft would be more of a concern than wind drift. The bullet would be traveling through a multitude of air layers with varying air current speeds and directions that it would next to impossible to come up with an accurate read on where and how much one would need to hold off. 

JLouis

  

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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #26 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 7:35pm
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JLouis wrote on Mar 21st, 2014 at 6:40pm:
1000 foot seconds I don't believe would get the bullet to the 1000 yard target. If it indeed was able to low flying aircraft would be more of a concern than wind drift. The bullet would be traveling through a multitude of air layers with varying air current speeds and directions that it would next to impossible to come up with an accurate read on where and how much one would need to hold off. 

JLouis


I've shot my 45 70 that far at 1100 fps for years.  I have no trouble hitting a full size steel silhouette of a buffalo at that range once I get the sights dialed in.  Of course it's easier to do with little or no wind but that's what makes this kind of shooting a challenge.

The bullet rises about 50 above the line of sight before coming back down.

The army conducted some tests in 1879 at Sandy Hook on the 45 70.

Here's a link to follow.  They shot out to 3200 yards.

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B'duckie
« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2014 at 7:42pm by Bobduck »  
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #27 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 7:39pm
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frnkeore wrote on Mar 21st, 2014 at 6:40pm:
To explain one more element, the reason that a subsonic bullet has less lag time is because it is only traveling through the air and not pushing the shock wave that occures in supersonic flight. That shock wave takes a lot of power to push.

B'duckie, that is a excellent explaination with excellent math to go with it. I've tried to explain this to many, many people over the last 20 years and usually just get a blank look. I didn't know the math, just ballistic tables and later ballistic programs.

Frank

The math and theoretical physics can be interesting but what counts is what happens out in the field.  But sometimes those things can give indications of what ideas are worth pursuing.

As an Aeronautical Engineer told me once.  "All that theory is great for designing airplanes but we still need wind tunnels."

B'duckie

  
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #28 - Mar 21st, 2014 at 9:53pm
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Vertical is a killer at LR.  The slower your MV the more vertical you can have affecting the bullet strikes. One the other hand, most people gravitate to the 45-90 for LR because they can get the MV to 1300+.  Now the calculations of wind drift based on MV, are interesting.  I have seen more 1000 yard targets missed high or low than misses attributed to wind effects missing off the side of the target.

I have shot many LR targets where the bullet hits where only 20 inches wide, but 36+ inches top to bottom.

My experience tells me that the calculators are not correct in predicting windage adjustments, but are very accurate at predicting elevation at various distances.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Speed of Sound Turbulence?
Reply #29 - Mar 22nd, 2014 at 11:54am
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And there's that other element you mathematicians don't take into account - that bullet will actually lose speed along the way, so that supersonic bullet at 1300 fps will be already subsonic at 200 yds, and the rest of the distance (800 yds) it will be below the speed of sound.  So better adapt that formula to take into account the velocity loss along the way.
I'd suggest checking whatever is happening at actual matches, and I can guarantee you no one is shooting at 1050 fps, and not for lack of trying...  Theory is and remains theory - but ES will indeed kill your vertical at those MV's.
  
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