That's about as nice a RB shotgun as I've seen. Most I come across are pretty used up, and often go for what the receivers are worth, around $250-$300. RB shotguns don't get huge prices, but they are a unique gun, and many have been reworked into rifles over the years. Finding an original in that condition, and keeping it original is more desirable to my thinking. Flayyderman's puts an original in excellent condition at around $500 I think.

From what research I've done, I think that the 16/20 ga stuff is nonsense.  I saw this in an early rolling block reference, and everybody has quoted it from there without verifying it.  I think it was speculative at the time to try to explain the slightly oversize dimensions of these shotguns, and I've never been able to find any shell dimensional information that backed it up.

I've owned many of these rolling blocks, and every one of them has had a fairly standard 20 ga chamber.  Bore is just a bit larger than a modern 20 ga, but the chamber is 20 ga for sure.   

The bore diameter of a modern 20 ga is .615 or so and .681 shell diameter.  I just went down and measured one of the 20 ga rolling blocks, it is .630 bore and .690 chamber.    I've done this measurement numerous times, sometimes the bore is down to the .625 range, but the chamber has always measured standard 20 ga.

In comparison, a 16 ga is .662 bore and .735 chamber.  Not even close to fitting.   

Every piece of brass shotgun hull I have ever measured has been very close to the same size as the paper shells.  That only makes sense, as the two were perfectly interchangeable for nearly 100 years.  It would make absolutely no sense for a manufacturer to make their guns different sizes for different case materials!  Far more sensible to vary the ammunition to match more or less standardized chambers, which is what they did. 

I'd love to have some information that proves me wrong.  Does anyone have old 16 ga cartridges that would fit in a .690" chamber?

Here's where you can get the proper Brass 20 ga to use in this gun:  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

The cases are available elsewhere, too, this has some dimensions is why I posted it.

Circle Fly Wads has the loading wads/cards/etc to allow you to properly load for this brass.

dave

I have two of these shotguns, a early shortened barrel (long lower tang) and a late one with equal length tangs. Both chambers measure .705 in diameter, 1/8" in front of the rim cut BUT, the muzzle on e early one (20" barrel) measures .620 and the late one, with a full length 30" barrel measures .665 at the muzzle, with no choke! Maybe, I have the missing link?

The early one has traces of CC on the frame and has a rather crude 20 stamped on the left side of the barrel, about 3/4" in front of the frame and a nicer, smaller B stamped about a 1/4" in front of the frame.

The late (larger bore) one has no markings at all on the barrel and doesn't look like it was CCed.

I have a lot of 12 ga brass shells and I know that you have to use 10 ga wads with them so, maybe the 16/20 is realistic. 20 ga brass shells with 16 ga wads and loads.

FolsomSmith, measure your bore at the muzzle, if it's in the .660 range, get 20 ga brass shells and load it with low preasure 16 ga loads, if in the .620 range, just use standard 20 ga shells. My early one is my digger squirl gun, I've shot hundreds of 20 ga, #7 1/2 and #6 shot loads out of it.

The other point is that the OP's butt plate doesn't appear to be original, my two have exactly the same smooth steel, shotgun butt plate. His looks like something that may have come off a carbine of some type. What kind of butt plate does your have, Dave?

Frank

I have one of the long lower tang models that desperately needs a stock. Anyone out there willing to part with one or know where I can get one? Mine is a 20 ga also.

JHolland

jhm wrote on Mar 11^th, 2014 at 8:14pm:



Wait a month or 6 weeks and contact me.  I took apart a sporter shotgun/rifle conversion this past weekend, and was going to ebay the pieces, including original sporter wood.  I didn't make myself do it, am thinking about putting it back together and selling as it is.  I'll probably wait a few weeks and then will decide what to do for sure.

It is a 100% fake rifle, period correct but built on a shotgun action.  It's probably worth more as a rifle than as the parts, but I hate to sell fakes; no matter if I disclose it the next owner will probably not disclose it.   

That said, though, the last wood set I sold on ebay for one of these rifles sold for about $640 for the forend and stock.  That was including the metal forend tip and correct buttplate, just like on this set.   

That's why I was going to sell the parts, will let someone restore an original with bad wood, and get a fake out of circulation, and at the same time preserve the value I have invested in the rifle.  I bought it knowing it was a fake, but knowing the parts were of value.

dave

Thanks for that link, that clears it up somewhat.   

From the dimensions given there, a 16B shell is .695" at the base.  That would be too big for my shotgun at .690", but just right for Frankeore's at .705".   

So, what it appears is that early brass shells were made smaller to work with converted muzzleloaders.  As paper shells were developed, they had the same bore, but thicker walls, so a new chamber was developed.  Brass shells were made in both diameters for a time as the shell dimensions transitioned, 16A for the new paper hull chamber size, and 16B for the old thin brass size.  Eventually the 16B size was phased out, as a 16B gun could easily be reamed out to accept 16A shells.

That explanation makes a lot of sense to me now.   

So, it would seem logical that early rolling block shotguns might be made in 16B size, and the chamber size and bore size would be larger.  Later ones were made in 20A size, and that's what I have always had and measured.   

I still don't think that the 20A and 16B are interchangeable, the 16B is larger than the 20A chamber from what I can tell.  If you ended up with one of the 16B shotguns, the thing to do would be to get correct 16B shells made and load it with appropriate sized wads, not try to shoot an undersized 20 Ga shell in it.

dave

There is no significant information published on the Remington made rolling block shotguns.  Marcot's book title includes the sporting model shotgun, however, there is no chapter on them in the book.  As Dave indicates there are a number of variations of the shotgun. About the time I think I have it figured out another comes along outside those parameters.  One thing is quite consistent, the receiver typically has the longitudinal groove down the top of the receiver ring to allow a better view of the front bead.  This is a feature unique to the shotgun.  Rifles built on this receiver should not be considered original manufacture.  Remington only made them 16 and 20 ga. 12 32 and 28 are available on European RBs.  The Remingtons come with both straight bar extractors and rotary extractors.  They also have military as well as sporting model butt stocks. The sporting model butt stock is typically accompanied by a true sporting model trigger guard with the longer lower tang.  The hammers are cut for a fly even though a set trigger was not offered.  I see this as the most desirable of the shotguns, however, the retail market does not vary much. A nice shotgun will usually sell $400 to $450. Since there are no production figures we don't know which is more rare. The true sporting model shotgun is the stepchild of the RB sporting model world.  These typically have both block and hammer in sporting configuration. The "forager" as Dave refers to it is found with any combination of military and sporting hammer or breech block so consistently I wonder that Remington did not simply use what they had in hand at the time of assembly.  That said it is the breech block that is more often military in profile.  Wood for the sporting model is so scarce that I asked Curt Hardcastle to make a pattern off an original.  Curt did a great job of it as the resulting stocks I have turned make for a nice restoration. Of course I have to upgrade the wood now and then for the fun of it....Kenn