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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 200-yard Offhand group size? (Read 7835 times)
Lefty38-55
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200-yard Offhand group size?
Mar 8th, 2014 at 12:02pm
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With all of the 'fixed vs breeched' discussion, and to build off of that ... what are the expectations for a "good" offhand group at 200?

I know from my highpower club, that an .... errr, black rifle has to be capable of 1/2-minute or better @ 100-yds (benched) to be competitive at 200Y offhand, i.e., where the weekly top score is or is a point or two (Winter league) of the magic 200.

But MY GOAL is to shoot my CPA 38-55 offhand @ 200-yds and do the best I can. I'm just seeking a benchmark from YOU guys to shoot for ... no pun intended!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #1 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 12:33pm
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most offhand is for score rather than group.  From what I've seen 200 on a ten shot target, or 2000 for a 100 shot, I'd judge pretty darn good.  If you kept all shots inside or touching the 20 ring which measures 9" on the 200 yard target (or a roughly theoretical 4.5 MOA "group") that'd give you a score of 200/2000, and probably better since a fair portion of those shots would probably be better scores than 20's---and you'd win a lot of matches. 
  Just a quick scan through the newest ASSRA Journal  record section and the current match scores for offhand results is interesting. It seems most of the 200 yard offhand record scores are in the 220/2200 range.   Most of the current matches are won with scores from 205 up to 215 or a little more.   I'd just guess from what is posted that the bell-curve bulk of the offhand shooters are shooting in the 175-195 (for 10 shots) range.    You can translate that to MOA,

I'm still well down the learning curve on offhand,  my personal goal at this point is to use the small red as my among point, trying to keep all the shots in the rings.
  If I could eliminate all the "10s", (the shots that have fallen outside the rings but still on the paper) my scores would be significantly better.   And I believe that is more of a shooting skill problem than an issue of load or load technique at this point
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2014 at 6:27pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Lefty38-55
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #2 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 1:07pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Mar 8th, 2014 at 12:33pm:
... eliminate the "10s", (the shots that have fallen outside the rings but still on the paper) my scores would be significantly better. And I believe that is more of a shooting skill problem than an issue of load or load technique at this point

Agreed and that's exactly what H.M. Pope himself would - opine ... to eliminate the bad shots.

Thanks also for the projected group size using the scoring rings. I thought of that, but am on the road, only have my schmart phone for access, haha!

W/ my highpower arms I focus on my 'cone of fire', not my score, and can keep them all in the black offhand at 200. Now I'm just trying get that cone of fire and group size smaller.

Even for my every-other-day air rifle practice, I don't shoot for score - but for group size WITHOUT fliers or errant shots. I use a wad punch and 1st cut out a 3/4" hole and would shoot into that. Once I could routinely shoot 20 or more shots into a 3/4" hole offhand from 33', then I went down to a 5/8" hole. If I make a miss and hit paper, I put up a new target and start over again. Works for me!
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2014 at 1:38pm by Lefty38-55 »  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Schuetzendave
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #3 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 3:46pm
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It seems most of the 200 yard offhand record scores are in the 220 range.

The Alberta Schuetzen Guild record is Colleen Molendyk's 462/500. Some of the top offhand competitors can shoot 230 to 235 targets offhand.

My highest 10 shot perfect target at 200 yards was .799 inch bench group. I understand others have shot tighter groups.
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #4 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 5:02pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 8th, 2014 at 3:46pm:
My highest 10 shot perfect target at 200 yards was .799 inch bench group.

Impressive!

And thank you both for the score info! Cheers
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #5 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 5:12pm
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Back in 1991 at Golden there were at least 4 (one of my own) individual targets over 230. I would say that the top 5% typically are working at keeping all hits inside the orange (22 or better. I recall Jim Feren  shooting at our local club and he had five or six hits like in Schuetzendave's icon  but he misssed the others wide for a 236.  Start with trying to keep them all in the 18 ring and go from there.

Charles
  
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #6 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 5:35pm
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Feren's 1993 record is 241 5C, was shot at Jefferson State Schuetzen Society here in Oregon was basically 4.5" group. Many of use have shot 241's off the bench at times w/o near as many center shots.

Frank
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2014 at 6:02pm by frnkeore »  

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boats
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 5:54pm
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Well I will ramble about it cause I keep track.  Score targets 2000 is a good score. 2100 separates the better shooters from the rest.  2200 is very good.  Best in the country may go 2300 sometimes, all time records are not much higher. Score breaker is wind or off shots. Limit the off shots 2100 is much easier to do. Mild conditon day makes a big differenc too. All I keep track of is score and off shots with a detailed log on why the off was off.

Far as group size. On our Club 200 yard Ram target Is what I shoot the most  20 inches high 40 inches wide. Larger head and Horn with two legs, but they rarely come into play. You want to put them in the 20 x 40 center of the steel . I generally keep 90 % of my offhand iron sight shots in 7 MOA, 14 inches at 200 yards. This from paint splashes in matches, paper target painted rams practice  Off shots are the ones than sneak outside of 7 moa when they do they are either way off to the right  on a bobble due to over hold or high near misses due to a fuzzy front sight.  Last 3 or 4 years my average all matches is bit over 36 hits.

Our club has a dozen guys with similar averages. Winner to also ran is totally dependent on number of off shots with one or two hits making the difference. High hit  was a 39 most matches are won with a 37 or 38 nobody has ever hit 40.  So the winners put high percentages into a target 10 moa high and 20 Moa wide

Scope matches on the ASSRA you don’t get as many eyesight misses but most have a tendency to over hold due to the better ability to see center.  Real key to shooting a good scope or iron score is see the spot pull the trigger don’t  wait for better.

Will post a picture of paper ram and Rimfire 100 yards same target in MOA Don't have one of the CF ram

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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #8 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 6:07pm
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Here is a practice target with about 92 % in the 10 moa x 20 moa sweet spot. Two high one off the nose thats off the picture, errors that would have lost a match. 

Target was Fired offhand with my Lever Silhouette Marlin 39 A at 100 meters. CPA weighs more and better trigger, the group with it is tighter most of the time. I am not the best shot in our club half a dozen guys shoot higher Lever scores than I do. At the state or national level Master Class shooters do better than this, Never missing the Ram

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Note the wider than high pattern. Ram is wider than high and fired with a 2 minute 5 shot time limit, we generally ignore the wind due short time and width available.

I have overlaid the ASSRA on these targets at times and they would make a respectable score target. Be better if wind was taken into consideration

Lefty and I are on the same page.  Off shots make or break the score ASSRA or Silhouette, it's all that's important

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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #9 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 7:40pm
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Ten inches would be a good goal. If you can do that you're bound to make some good scores Smiley . Practice practice practice is in my opinion what is needed most.

You can talk about 225-230's all day but the reality is those are excellent/high scores that takes a great oh shooter having a pretty good day. OH is freakin hard!

John
  
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #10 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 10:46pm
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I might add that 'good' off hand shooting is a product of lots of practice, and the practice must develope good technique.  Once good technique and position are developed, with practice, great strides are made.  Practicing 'bad' technique is frustrating and discouraging.  Make no mistake, the best off hand shooters have good technique and practice a lot.   Wink

Cary
  
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 8:59am
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Ramble some more,

Target equipment and match makes a difference in group size.  For example on indistinct targets like a Silhouette groups will be larger. Paint a black dot on a White Ram group shrinks because you have a aiming point.  Difference in resolution Iron to Scope gives you another minute of angle.  Weight of the gun trigger pull all make a difference. 

Major advantage of a Schuetzen is the palm rest allowing direct connection between gun supporting hand and hipbone.  Hook plate and high cheek piece settle things down too.

Found a Rimfire ASSRA 100 yard target from one of last year’s matches. Full Schuetzen CPA nothing else can be done with the rifle to raise scores. Not the best target not the worst, just happened to be in my target bag. Measuring, the 10 shot group was 2 ½ inches high 5 ½ inches wide. Centered up no off shots score 216. Wind error left and right accounted for the score. Put together 10 of those targets it’s a 2160 Hudson.  Not a easy thing to do.

Keep shots in 2 ½ moa elevation, groups nicely center up. If you can shrink the wind error to less than 5 moa you will have a good score.  End of the match score will depend on no off shots. Fellow that can shoot all in 4  or 5 moa will have a higher final score than someone that can hold 3 moa and pulls a percentage off.

Squaded with one of the top silhouette shooters in the country years ago, he gave me some good advice after the match. “ you will learn to hold the rifle better, for now don’t make mistakes  “

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Lefty38-55
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 3:32pm
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boats wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 8:59am:
Ramble some more ... end of the match score will depend on no off shots. 

“You will learn to hold the rifle better, for now don’t make mistakes"

By all means, keep rambling as your info makes the most sense to me, or perhaps I should say you state things in a manner that I easily understand and can relate to. Love that quote!

FWIW I shot 200Y this morning with the highpower team, using my CPA with fixed ammo and had an 8" group going (tad left and low ~1-2" from X center) for the 1st ten rounds ... and then started 'panicing' ... cuz I thought I was doing pretty good. Then threw a 7 low left and a few shots later another 7 low right. Otherwise the group easily held the black (13" diam) for my first offhand at 200Y with this CPA in a match, albeit a highpower one (SR-200 target) ... 

I agree 110% on trigger time and practice, practice, practice ... and will setup my Shaver 38-55 insert (22LR) for more trigger time, using my same regimen of putting as many shots as I can threw a small hole cut in the paper (indoor gallery) without throwing a shot wild. Indoors to 50' I'll use Aquila Colibris and then CCI std velocity for 50Y or 100Y practice, depending on what range is available.

And for now, my offhand quest continues!
« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2014 at 3:45pm by Lefty38-55 »  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Re: 200-yard Offhand group size?
Reply #13 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 11:01pm
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When I'm shooting my best OH, groups can measure and usually measure about ten to twelve inches.  I don't consider them groups. More like patterns. Most of the time I have one or two wide shots. All this about equations and radius and so on makes no sense to me. 

     Joe.
  

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