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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Blind Hog Found an Acorn ! (Read 19125 times)
uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #15 - Apr 14th, 2014 at 5:36pm
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Almost nobody knows of the Harwood Hornet.  I certainly didn't.  Only a chance comment by a friend on another forum gave me a clue, and Bent_Ramrod's copious memory for old magazine articles provided details.   

Here's the two Hornets, side by side.   

  

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marlinguy
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #16 - Apr 14th, 2014 at 5:50pm
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Not sure where Grant came up with 2000 as a starting serial number for the Stevens 44. I've seen several with serial numbers well below 2000, and one below 1000.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #17 - Apr 14th, 2014 at 10:45pm
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Below 2000, they would have to be New Ideals, the precursor to the 44, yes?   By the catalogs, the 44 designation doesn't start until 1896 when Page took over the company.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #18 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 1:27am
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Here is a New Ideal ( I think they are also called 108's ?) That sold yesterday #2536

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uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #19 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 2:09am
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107 / 108 / 109 / 110 in ascending order of wood quality and sights.  That one's going to be a project.     I wonder if anyone at a certain agency is paying attention to how they are described and traded.  (shhhhhhhh!)   Lips Sealed
  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #20 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 3:53pm
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USCRA,

I have a 107 and a couple of the 44's that have the breech and lever pins that screw in from one side rather than being held by keys and separate screws.  All three rifles have the 7:00 extractors.  The 107 is in the low 2XXX serial range, the 44's in the 10,XXX-11,XXX ranges.

The 107 frame has a blotchy case-hardening pattern, like a Winchester.  Only one of the 44's has traces of original finish, but it is the wavy pattern that one normally associates with Stevens.

The block and lever screws for the 107 are 0.228" in diameter, with a 0.282" screw head, while those for the 44's are 0.287" with a 0.312" screw head.  Evidently, some beefing up was deemed necessary as the Ideal rifle continued in use.  I don't know when this started, though.

The fitting of the breechblock against the back of the frame in the 107 is noticeably closer than on the 44's.  Perhaps the Engineering Dept thought the heavier pins would obviate the need for close (i.e., hand) fitting on the later production.

My 107's buttstock does not have the same serial number as the frame, but it does have one, in pencil under the buttplate.  It has a homemade forend, or at least home-modified, worse luck, as any number on that is long gone.  They must have dropped the numbering of buttstocks fairly quickly; I have seen no penciled numbers on any of my 44's.  No idea when the stock replacement and modification was made, either.

Anyway, you might check for some of these early Ideal features in your rifle.  HTH.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #21 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 5:22pm
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That's an interesting tidbit - that they increased the diameter of the screws.   Mine are also .228" shank diameter.

A goodly number of purposed-built schuetzen rifles were made on the 44 action, 1896 to 1903 approx., and in .32-40  and .38-55, too.   I would dearly love to survey a few of those to determine features such as pivot diameters, lugged hammer (yes or no), fit to the shoulders, etc.  We know that schuetzen shooters thought nothing of firing thousands of rounds a year in practice, yet these old 44 style actions must have held up, or Stevens would never have sold so many. 

Another question that nags me is how they finished those shoulders.  In my 108 they seem to have a curve to them, which argues for some sort of rotary broach that pivoted on the breechblock screw.  The only way I can think of that would create a radius to match the swing of the breechblock.   

My receiver is gone grey, but by squinting real hard I can convince myself that it was the "pinto" pattern so characteristic of Winchester, and not the "ripple" pattern.  

Took the buttplate off.  Had not done that before.  On the wood are a few characters in what looks like felt-tip pen.  Too faint to be really legible.  D ? I ?. Second character might be an R, 4th character might be N or M.   There are more characters on a line below that which I can't make sense of at all.   The brass plate is crisply stamped with a number 1, and in a different location with the last 2 digits of my serial number.    The forend is also stamped with those two digits.   
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2014 at 5:27pm by uscra112 »  

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slumlord44
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #22 - Apr 15th, 2014 at 7:57pm
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The receiver has a serial # and is the gun. That could get messy.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #23 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 1:24pm
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I guess if we're simply talking a model designation, then yes the 44 would be a later model. But the receivers really are so similar that I've always lumped them all into the "44" type guns. It's not correct from a true collector standpoint.
Some of those larger caliber 44's are still around and still very tight. But not all of them held up, and many are found extremely loose in calibers like .38-55, .32-40, and the larger pistol calibers like .44-40 and .38-40 too. I've owned a number of them in the larger calibers and found about half of them had worn the pins out.
There was also a design change in the receivers from early 44's to later. The early ones have a very hard internal corner shape at the vertical transition to the receiver top. Later models have that corner rounded to avoid cracking that some early receivers exhibited. I would guess Stevens must have had some issue way back then, or they wouldn't have changed that design. You can see in this picture my 44 in .32-20 has a gentle inside curve to the transition:
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uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #24 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 3:57pm
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That's a real pretty one.   

Assume it has the lugged hammer?   If so, I'm dying to know whether the breechblock is the same as those without the lug.   Laying the action out in CAD, it would seem that the BB ought to have a"pad" below the firing pin for the lug to bear on.   Given the standard BBs that I have, it seems to me that there would be only a line contact, which could not take much stress.  Do you know?

From what I'm reading, the 7 o'clock extractor wasn't changed until somewhere around 1903, which was when they relegated the 44 style action to pistol calibers only.  Would it be fair to say then, that all the lugged-hammer models were also 7 o'clock extractor models?  Have to explain that, up to now, my interest in 44s has been as cheap guns to tinker with.  Been on a beer budget all my life, so collecting the higher grades has never been an option.  Acquiring this Model 108 hasn't altered my budgeting, but it has made me think more like a collector.  (Ironically, I paid a lot less for this nice specimen than I have paid in the past for worn-out clunkers.) 

Phil
  

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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #25 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 4:02pm
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Here's my 107.  Somebody "customized" it for fair, but it seems to have been well taken care of for all that.  The barrel is lighter than any Stevens single shot I've seen, short of 044-1/2's and Ladies Models.  It has the J. Stevens A & T Co markings on the barrel, and the barrel has the same number as the receiver.  Caliber is .32-35.  The frame has the right angle, and the barrel protrudes deeply enough so you can see a little of the extractor.
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #26 - Apr 16th, 2014 at 4:07pm
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Close up of the action.  I can't seem to add more than one picture per posting.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #27 - Apr 17th, 2014 at 6:29pm
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Blew my theory up all by myself last night, with a stroll through Gunbroker.   There's a .32-40 on offer right now with the 6 o'clock extractor.    GunBroker.com Item 407393445
  

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Chev. William
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #28 - May 1st, 2014 at 6:36pm
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uscra112 wrote on Apr 15th, 2014 at 2:09am:
107 / 108 / 109 / 110 in ascending order of wood quality and sights.  That one's going to be a project.     I wonder if anyone at a certain agency is paying attention to how they are described and traded.  (shhhhhhhh!)   Lips Sealed


The NSA Sees All and "knows Nothing" according to Government Testimony.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
  
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Re: Blind Hog Found an Acorn !
Reply #29 - May 2nd, 2014 at 10:56am
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[quote author=4D4B5B4A5909090A380 link=1392439586/21#21 date=1397596965][i][u]


Another question that nags me is how they finished those shoulders.  In my 108 they seem to have a curve to them, which argues for some sort of rotary broach that pivoted on the breechblock screw.  The only way I can think of that would create a radius to match the swing of the breechblock.
 
 
How this can be done, mount the reciever on a face plate with the breechblock pin hole centered on the spindle axis. The reciever needs to oscillate back and forth about 40 degrees on a 44. Looks to me like a verticle tool slide would be needed and the reciever oriented with the tang up. To do the cut rock the reciever back and forth by hand and advance the tool into the cut. This is basically a shaper operation. I've not done this on a 44 but do have a reciever that is rusted badly in that area and "someday" plan to clean it up and make an oversize breechblock. Hope that explaination was followable. 
kootne
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2014 at 11:01am by kootne »  

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