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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Newbie" question (Read 14685 times)
Chris C
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"Newbie" question
Feb 13th, 2014 at 9:59pm
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I'm a newbie on the forum.  Been lurking for quite a while now and just signed up a couple of days ago.  Really great site and I can't believe how many really knowledgeable individuals there are “living” here.    

I come from a background in Marlin lever action rifles.  Recently got the “hots” for a Marlin 1893 in .38-55.  The group I'm a part of shoots lever actions at “dingers” up to 1000 yards away.  But something in the back of my mind keeps hollering “single-shot”.  So I started looking at the likes of C. Sharps, Shiloh Sharps, Pendersoli and Uberti.  During that journey, I kept getting tugged to 1885 High Walls and can't get them off my mind.

Okay, so as I “wandered” in my drunken stupor, all the while dreaming of High Walls, someone said I needed to go to this site because “they know everything about single shot rifles there.”  So here I am!  And I have to say, I'm having a ball reading all I can and looking at all the beautiful firearms.  But I've just come across a “puzzlement” today.  The reproduction rifles (I know, you guys look down on them) shoot smokeless powder cartridges.  So do these older rifles like I see here on the forum (Hepburns, High Walls, Schutzen, etc. and a ton of other names I've never heard of) shoot smokeless, or am I looking at BPC?  I absolutely don't want to load Black Powder.  It's got me wondering if maybe I need to just tuck my tail and go back to my “repros” and be happy.

Any comments to help a fledgling?
  

Chris
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bnice
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 10:32pm
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Most of us shoot smokeless. You just have to know if your rifle is capable, which Hiwalls are. We are shooting plain base cast bullets below 1500 FPS (ussually).
  
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JLouis
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2014 at 10:33pm
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Smokeless and Breach Seated for Schuetzen matches, BP is not competitive.
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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Chris C
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #3 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 1:46am
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Thanks.  I feel better about "drooling" on all these pictures then. 

I guess my next question is about cost.  I know "if you have to ask, you probably can't afford it."  But the really nice reproductions can be had for as little as $2,500 (if that's considered "little") if you don't want to go crazy with the extras.  What are the chances of finding one of the old High Wall, or Hepburn, etc., etc., etc., that I'm seeing on the site, in that range?
  

Chris
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frnkeore
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #4 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 2:24am
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If you have $2500 to spend, you should be able to put a competitve rifle together, even if you don't do any of the work.

FBW action, 400

Douglas barrel installed, 350

Stocks, not sure if you could find a finished set, 300

Hot blue, 100

Weaver 24X scope, <350

Misc, 300

Bullet mold and breech seater, 300

That's only $1700 and that's assuming you have the rest of the loading equipment. 

If your patient, you can find a complete target rig for <$2500 and in putting a rifle together you can find deals that will redice costs. We all like to help in that department Smiley

Frank
  

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waterman
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #5 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 4:04am
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Welcome, Chris

You have had some good advice.  My advice is to ask yourself what you really want to do with your new rifle.   

If you want to be competitive in hotly-contested benchrest matches, there is a steep learning curve, with lots of frustration and a lot of practice needed.  Equipment is pricey and your $2500 may not be enough.

But if you just want to try your hand at a local or regional offhand match, or if you just want to try out a single shot when you shoot at gongs with your friends, your $2500 budget should be more than adequate.

In many ways, buying a(nother) single shot is a lot like buying a car.  You do not necessarily need a new one.  There are lots of reasons why a rifle gets sold.  Most of us are old.  We die or get sick and our rifles get sold, on this forum if we're lucky.  Sometimes a guy needs $$ for any number of reasons.   

And sometimes the guy who is selling the rifle just cannot get it to shoot.  I bought a Uberti High Wall from a guy who could not say enough bad about it.  But for me, it is a 1.5-minute rifle.

And sometimes the rifle is a perfect stinker.  I have bought a couple of those, thinking that I knew better.  But I was wrong.   

Collectors pay premiums for top condition & all factory original.  But if you just want to learn and maybe bang away at a gong, you do not need to compete with the collectors.   

I think your choice of a High Wall is a good one.  I have heard & read enough to think that if either of the Italian reproductions has mechanical problems, it should be avoided.  I know nothing about the Japanese made ones, except that the designs have been altered.  The newly US-made actions probably all have high prices. But an original, particularly a "parts" rifle (one put together from salvaged or collected parts) is probably both available & affordable.

One thing more:  Get a common caliber.  32-40 or 38-55 or 45-70.  Brass & bullets are easier to find, there is a lot of good loading data, and resale is easier.
  
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J.Francis
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #6 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 5:17am
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Chris,
     Check out the for sale section of this forum; Leon (AC Gould) has a beautiful hiwall schuetzen rifle for 1995.00. It's not a pristine collector's item but it does have a new bore, double set triggers a great offhand stock and all kinds of curb appeal. It might be just what you're looking for. Best of luck.
  
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boats
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #7 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 6:40am
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On the low end of the scale friend of mine bought a very shootable Original High Wall for 1100 dollars. Parts gun nothing matched but still looks and works fine except the scope blocks were new and poorly installed. 

That's less than a new CSharps High Wall. Of course new you have choices barrels caliber triggers stock etc.   

I would look for the action your prefer then the caliber and barrel condition. Most other things can be upgraded later. With 2500 to spend figure 500 for sights allowing 2000 for the rifle. Ought to be easy to get going for that.

Boats
  
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Chris C
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #8 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:29am
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Wow, don't r eally know where to start.

Not interested in any organized competitions or matches.  Might get to go out to Washington or Wyoming to participate in one of the dinger shoots some day.  Most of my shooting will be right here on my property by myself.  Don't need a new rifle..............in fact, I've always appreciated the vintage rifles. (late 1800's) .38-55 is my choice of round.  Have my reloading equipment............no bullets or brass, but as has been mentioned, that's no biggie.  Will be wanting a Soule mid-range rather than a scope.......and a spirit level globe front site.  Hadn't really thought about "putting together" a rifle..........just thought I'd purchase complete.  Bluing isn't a requirement.........in fact, I like the patina of older riles as long as the steel is sound.

Thanks for all the comments.  They are helpful.  And, yes, this forum is also full of gal-darned enablers!  That's always most helpful.  Grin
  

Chris
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ledball
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #9 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:35am
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Chris
         Be done with the looking and wondering, order a CPA Stevens with your choice of caliber and stock, you'll not be sorry.   Ledball


  
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SSShooter
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #10 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:43am
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Chris C - where are you located. There are likely gong and other matches located near you. 

As a C. Sharps High Wall shooter, I just went to their website and used their "Gun Builder" link to put together a new High Wall (theirs are faithful reproduction of the original) in 25-35 (most any other period cartridge is available at no additional cost). With a 30" full octagon barrel (other choices are available), single-set trigger (what I and most others I know who shoot their High Walls use), upgraded wood, pistol-grip & cheek-rest, shotgun butt-plate, globe front-sight with level and mid-range tang sight and color cased action the price was $2515. Right on your target number. My spotter and I both shoot C. Sharps rifles (made in MT), as do any number of others we compete with and think they are excellent, as are Shiloh Sharps (Sharps rifles, only) and CPAs, the three largest single-shot makers in the USA. You could purchase a nice rifle from any of them for your $2500, give or take. 

You can use smokeless loads in all of them as long as you stay pretty much within the realm of cast bullet pressures (MV of ~1700fps). But, never-say-never with BP. If you want to compete in sanctioned matches other than Schuetzen you will need at least duplex loads and loading BP is pretty much the same as loading smokeless if you purchase pre-lubed cast bullets (the way many of us started). 

As for putting together your own rifle, that takes a fair amount of gunsmithing/metal working skill and proper tools.

Whatever you choose, good luck with your choice and have fun.



  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Chris C
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #11 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:52am
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SSShooter wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 8:43am:
Chris C - where are you located. There are likely gong and other matches located near you. 

As a C. Sharps High Wall shooter, I just went to their website and used their "Gun Builder" link to put together a new High Wall (theirs are faithful reproduction of the original) in 25-35 (most any other period cartridge is available at no additional cost). With a 30" full octagon barrel (other choices are available), single-set trigger (what I and most others I know who shoot their High Walls use), upgraded wood, pistol-grip & cheek-rest, shotgun butt-plate, globe front-sight with level and mid-range tang sight and color cased action the price was $2515. Right on your target number. My spotter and I both shoot C. Sharps rifles (made in MT), as do any number of others we compete with and think they are excellent, as are Shiloh Sharps (Sharps rifles, only) and CPAs, the three largest single-shot makers in the USA. You could purchase a nice rifle from any of them for your $2500, give or take. 


Thanks.  C. Sharp's High Wall in .38-55, doctored up the way I would like, is right at that $2,500 price range.  Thing is, $2,500 is out of my league for right now.  But would sure love to have one of theirs.  I'll just have to keep trying to find the money, I guess.  Oh, and will have to find a way to get it into the house without the little wife catching on!  Grin  She really dislikes my interest in firearms.  Embarrassed
  

Chris
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bohemianway
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #12 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 9:20am
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Lots of options. A couple of months ago I bought a Pedersoli 1874 45-70 32" with midrange tang as new for $775 from Cabella's gun library of all places. First outing yielded 1.5" at 100 yds with fixed 4198 loads and lasercast bullets. They are out there but it is buyer beware. Check out Buffaloarms.com and they have the Uberti highwalls in 38-55 for ~$1000 ($1100 for DST) and from what I see it will be a while before you out grow the capability of one of these. Then with teh experience gained you can go into a higher class rifle knowing what you really want. Also, the resale on the Uberti should be ~$700 so you are only in for a net loss of $300 if everything goes wrong.
  
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boats
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #13 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 9:54am
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One thing you need is good sights, Sight controls every shot fired not a place to skimp.  MVA is the gold standard.  

Way I got into my first CPA was order with unfinished wood. Shot it that way for several years, then sanded out myself for free. Much later had a little cash laying around and had it final finished and checkered. Unfinished wood they are under 2000 dollars. C Sharps may do the same thing. Figure 600 bucks for first class professional sand out checker and finish

Other economy with the CPA is switch barrels. 600 bucks you can change calibers.  Like you I prefer the 38/55 but if going longer than 500 yards better off with a 40 caliber.  You have to add 100 for a block if the new barrel is Rimfire, switch the breechblock for Rim Fire. Considering the cost of actions stocks and sights same gun two barrels is a real savings.

Boats
  
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Re: "Newbie" question
Reply #14 - Feb 14th, 2014 at 10:26am
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boats wrote on Feb 14th, 2014 at 9:54am:
Other economy with the CPA is switch barrels. 600 bucks you can change calibers.  Like you I prefer the 38/55 but if going longer than 500 yards better off with a 40 caliber.  You have to add 100 for a block if the new barrel is Rimfire, switch the breechblock for Rim Fire. Considering the cost of actions stocks and sights same gun two barrels is a real savings.

Another option is a 22LR insert, as Lee Shaver made one up for me custom (only $20 more) to fit in my 38-55s. Using CCI std velocity (thank God I stocked up well before the frenzy) I'm finding it capable of accuracy equaling that of my B-model speedlok Win 52. Haven't tried more $$ ammo yet in it ... 
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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