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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ?? (Read 15670 times)
RoyB
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Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Feb 12th, 2014 at 7:27am
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I did a search but didn't find anything. I've loaded up BP loads to be used in my Ballard, but at times, if safe, I'd like to use my standard smokeless 38-55 load. 

8g of Unique under a 1-20 Accurate Mold 250g bullet

What say the masses?

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Roy B
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #1 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 8:47am
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FWIW my late Dad's notes from the data on my #9 & 10 Ballards shows 7-grns Unique @ 1040 fps and 9-grns @ 1228, with the Lyman 375248 (249-gr FN) cast. His handwritten note says 9-grns Unique was the max in older rifles of pre-smokeless steel.

We always used SR-4759, 13.7 or 14.3. But I have Ken Waters' Pet Loads downstairs and he has the various load levels for the action strengths. So I'll take a look and see what he says and report back later.
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2014 at 9:07am by Lefty38-55 »  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #2 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 9:18am
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Ken W lists the weakest actions as the Ballards, Stevens 44s & Tip-Ups, Colt Lightning and the Marlin 1881.

Using that same Lyman 375248 bullet, no Unique load is listed, but it has, amongst others:

-16-grns of WW-630 @ 1465 fps
-18-grns of 4227 @ 1340 fps
-18-grns of SR-4759 @ 1383 fps (I myself would not go that high)

Whereas no filler should ever be used with Unique, I have found it position sensitive and low charges can be dirty and sometimes erratic in accuracy, perhaps due to the combustion variances.

Hopefully others can give you more data!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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boats
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #3 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 11:07am
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Over 20 years used between 16 and 17 grs of 4759  290 gr bullet 38/55 fixed in my CPA. Last few years went to 4227 just because it measures better, loading about a half grain more 4227.  Reason for the charge variance is different lots of 4759 or 4227 will have different burn rates. Same rifle same bullet many changes in makers and lots of powder over the years.

4759 is going out of production might want to start from scratch with 4227.  Our local shop has 4227 in 1 lb and 8 lb jugs.  Shelf full of 4759 too, I bought 4 pounds to have on hand should I ever load my 40/65 with smokeless. Told me when it's gone no more. 

Unique is always a good choice, like most pistol powders today, unavailable   

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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #4 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 11:58am
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I don't shoot any BP in my Ballards. They all have gotten smokeless loads, but I keep all my loads light. I never try to push the velocities, even with hunting loads.
  

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RoyB
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #5 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 12:20pm
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Thanks folks...I'm sure we have all read about the Ballard that blew up at the Quigley Shoot a few years ago and nearly took off the shooters hand. But my understanding, that was a cast frame rifle. And my rifle is a forged receiver.

BTW, to keep Unique down over the primer, I cut tiny 1/2" squares out of single ply toilet paper and use a pencil to push it down over the powder. That load is super accurate with a few different 250-265g bullets in half a dozen 38-55 rifles I own.
  

Roy B
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Redsetter
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:12pm
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Lefty38-55 wrote on Feb 12th, 2014 at 8:47am:
I have Ken Waters' Pet Loads downstairs and he has the various load levels for the action strengths.


My reloading Bible!
  
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2014 at 2:14pm
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I use 19 grains IMR 4227 under 300 grain bullets in my Cody Ballard. Low pressure and accurate. Would use the same load in any Ballard. 

    Joe.
  

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.22-5-40
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #8 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 1:39am
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But can an original Ballard..as well as other brands of vintage rifles safely stand an accidental dbl. charge of smokeless?  I know we all say never could happen..i'm too careful...but... Undecided
  
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #9 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 9:17am
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A lot of times a Ballard will not stand a double charge. That is one reason I am against using Unique in these rifles. Just too little volume to see if there is a problem.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #10 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 10:57am
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.22-5-40 wrote on Feb 21st, 2014 at 1:39am:
But can an original Ballard..as well as other brands of vintage rifles safely stand an accidental dbl. charge of smokeless?  I know we all say never could happen..i'm too careful...but... Undecided


No, but very few vintage singleshots can stand a double charge. That wont make me change to BP for all my old singleshot rifles, but it does make me take much more care reloading.
  

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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #11 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 11:44am
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I use my anti double charge device. Can't double charge a case. 

    Joe.
  

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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #12 - Feb 21st, 2014 at 2:44pm
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I rely on IMR 4198 for the vast majority of my 'nitro for black' loads. A good starting point for the 4198 is 40% of the original charge of black. I am very comfortable with this formula for all of my rifles, including a Swiss Vetterli I converted to center fire and a Model 1871 Mauser. Good Luck!
  

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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #13 - Dec 8th, 2014 at 9:27pm
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I had the same question but not for Unique.   Just got the paper work that followed purchase of a Ballard #1 1/2 Hunter with Octagon #3 Barrel, made in Cody by Ballard Rifle and Cartridge.   Flyer that came with it says "This Ballard Rifle is for Black Powder only".    

Now I don't yet know what a #3 barrel indicates but am hoping that SR 4759, IMR 4227 and IMR 4198 are all good candidates because I like those powders and read that the pressure graphs compare favorably with Black Powder.

I have not started any development yet since I just did the chamber cast tonight but have a 264gr mold for my 1893 that should work sized a little smaller.   I'm shooting IMR 4198 in that so may back off that load to what I'd calculate will be under 1300fps from the longer barrel and start looking for accuracy.   Lube is adaquate in a 26" barrel so should be interesting to see if it remains adaquate for another 4".   

Does anyone know what the #3 Barrel indicates?  Don't know much about the production history of Cody so not even sure if they produced rifles specifically for Smokeless while producing other specifically for BP????   

Westerner, is yours specifically BP?

  

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John
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Re: Ballard, 38-55, Smokeless ??
Reply #14 - Dec 8th, 2014 at 9:56pm
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The BP only Cody Ballards is a liability issue. I shoot both type powders in mine.

If I got paperwork with my two Cody Ballard rifles, I didn't read it.   

Double charging is always possible. I know a shooter of long experience who started charging her cases at home before the match, just to be safer.  Yep, double charged it and broke the frame.  One can double charge shot shells and pistol ammo too.   

Start at 16 gr 4227. 19 gr is the most I've used in my Ballard 38-55.   

      Joe. 
  

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