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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Custom expanders (Read 8239 times)
Old Vark WSO
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Custom expanders
Feb 1st, 2014 at 12:33pm
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Hi all -

First post on this forum - although I have been lurking for some time now.  I feel like a T-baller mingling with major leaguers after reading many of these threads. 

A few years ago I was bitten by the Cowboy Action Shooting bug and jumped in with both feet.  At the annual matches I shoot the long range events with a pair of .38-55s, a Marlin Cowboy and a Mirochester 1885, - with some success.

Shooting the single shot has been challenging and I am still trying to figure out if it is an art or a science.  I have been using RCBS Cowboy dies for reloading (smokeless) and had read about (here) Lyman M-dies.  Since those seem to be out of stock everywhere - I searched around and found Buffalo Arms custom expanders.  They appear to perform the same function.  Do any of you use these, and if so, what size do you use?

I spoke with one of the folks at Buffalo Arms - he said some go 2/1000ths under and over the bullet size and some go 1/1000th.  The bore on the Mirokus is .376 and I am currently shooting .378s (Lyman 378674) with Starline long brass.  

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.  Hoping to eventually find the sweet spot on this rifle and get it to shoot to minute-of-gong!  Grin

Cheers -

OVW
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #1 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:48pm
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Breech seat your Mirochester 1885 and you won't need to buy one Wink ! That'll tighten up your groups to boot Smiley .
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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westerner
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #2 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:43pm
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Get best accuracy with the Saeco 300 grain and the Hoch 376-310 bullets cast 20-1. Both tapered bullets.  Don't size my brass when using BP. Hand seat the bullet on a Walters wad. Breech seat when using smokeless.
19 gr IMR 4227. WLR primer. 

Have also used a bullet similar to the 376-674 at 350 gr fixed with BP. Best I could manage was 4 inch groups from the bench at 200 yards.

      Joe.
  

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boats
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #3 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:32pm
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You can get them from CH4D too. Most of the time fast delivery

Boats
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #4 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:55pm
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I've got some of the Buffalo Arms expanders.  To be honest I think you can work up a good load with anywhere from zero neck tension ( fireformed, unsized, seat bullets by hand ) to two thousandths under bullet diameter.  I'm sure that some use more than this too.

Breech seating is nice too Smiley.  I tend to do things differently than most so I breech seat a bore diameter paper patched bullet in my .38 cal rifles.   They work very well when shot with black powder.

Chris.
  
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boats
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #5 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:46am
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Breech seating while popular perhaps necessary in Schuetzen is a special situation not practical or even allowed in many matches.  It's gets it's "bullet pull" from the bullet engaging the leade.

Cowboy with a lever action another special requirement, bullet has to stay in place in a tubular magazine on recoil most do it with Crimp.  Black powder cartridge rifle lot of guys use slip fit no bullet pull at all.  They get proper ignition from bullet weight, black is easy to ignite and the bulk of powder behind the bullet keeps it in place. One at a time no need to stand up to recoil.

What I think you need is information on less than case filling smokeless loads in the 38/55.  Bullet pull is important and you need some. How much and what size is hard to say, it depends, give you some general principles.

Too little pull with 4759 or 4227 you will see unburned powder in the bore more likely with 4759. Too much pull will deform your bullets, easier to do softer the bullet is.  Crimp can make up for neck pull if your bullet has a crimping grove in the right place for O/L length

My 38/55 shooting fixed in a CPA Single shot, been using a 300 gr bullet cast out of 1/25, not real hard, .002 over bore size. Neck size the cases then open up with the expander plug to about .001 less than bullet diameter. Then put a mild crimp on the case into the bullets designed crimping grove. Loaded this way it's a 1 1/2 moa load adequate for offhand matches or your Cowboy distance events. Load a large lot at one time the bullet stays in place, can count on the loads to perform in matches.

Am changing bullets this winter new mold for fixed loading and what worked before may not work with the new bullet. Going to use minimum neck pull, light crimp, 1/25 or perhaps 1/20 lead/tin mix 4227 powder as a starting point.   Suggest you do the same.

Boats

  
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ClaMar
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #6 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:48am
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I'd start with an expander 0.376" diameter, with the larger diameter 0.380" or 0.381".  That should let you begin to seat the bullet without shaving lead.  I'm personally not a fan of zero neck tension, and I'd advise not doing that for the cowboy game.  I'd get a taper crimp die and use a moderate to heavy taper crimp for consistent ignition.  With the bullet seated out until it is slightly engaged in the lands (just a few thousandths) and fully seated by the block closing, the taper crimp, and the right powder charge (I'd try 5744 first, unless you plan to lay in a stash of 4759, which will discontinued soon).

Clarence
  
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Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #7 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:17pm
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I have several .375 win's.  I expand to two diameters - one holding the bullet with .001 or so tension and for 1/10" at the top .001 or so slip fit for that bullet.  That allows me to slip the bullet without shearing anything into the case, seat to the depth I want and then just LIGHTLY 'crimp' the case to remove any "belling" (also a part of the expander).

Don't know if it's optimal or not for accuracy, it is convenient.

  

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westerner
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #8 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:53pm
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Last week dis-assembled 45-90 ammo that didn't work. .460 bullets measured .455. So much for shooting bullets as cast. 
Neck tension to create inertia is small and inconsistent. Bullet weight is far more effective and very consistent.   

For BP, no neck tension works best for me accuracy wise.  Have shot CA 200 yard matches. There was no need to have the bullets firmly fixed in the cases when using a single shot rifle.   

The OP asked about a single shot rifle.

    Joe.  Smiley

  

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boats
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #9 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 2:20pm
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I don't believe in no tension for less than full smokeless. Did not believe in crimp either but went to it for a better burn with 4759. Switched to 4227 and kept the crimp.   It's true single shot does not have to 
Be loaded like a lever gun.  Only thing is I load 6 60 round MTM boxes at a time.  3 or 4 months later don't want to pull ctg number 335 out of the box and find the bullet slipped from all the carrying around. Little tension or crimp makes a secure load.

Boats
  
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #10 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 2:40pm
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Sometimes I carry the loaded shells and bullets separate. Drop the bullets in the cases when I get there.

Would rather not trade accuracy for convenience.

    Joe.
  

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Old Vark WSO
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #11 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 10:31pm
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Thanks for all the replies - lots to think about.  I do have the molds for the Saeco #571, the Hoch .377 310 grain, and an NIB Lyman 375166 - haven't stepped up to pouring my own yet but do have a Waage pot, ladle, and thermometer.

I have been using 3031, but may rethink that on what I read here.  My last practice rounds, I seated just to where the nose of the bullet engaged the lands and did crimp with a Lee FCD (one lube groove exposed).  

I had some fair success with the factory supplied Marble's tang sight, but was using holdover - just not tall enough.  I bought a Montana Vintage Arms sight and really like it - just haven't had a chance to shoot with it much yet.  

I'll keep searching/reading here for tips and ideas as I figure out the best way to load and shoot this rifle.

Thanks again,

OVW
  
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #12 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 7:22am
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You can use 3031 it was one of my first single shot straight case powders. Suspect it was in manuals the years 4759 was out of production. It burns slow and needs bullet pull for sure, even so a lot of unburnt powder in the bore.

4759 is ideal for the job but now going out of production again.  I switched almost all my loads over to  4227. Others may work but if setting up new better to limit the variables, use a proven powder is a good start, experiment with bullet fit first, get it right fine tune the powder charge and brand.

Boats
  
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Old Vark WSO
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #13 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 9:54pm
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Hi boats and all -

The journey continues ...

Step one - just acquired (probably the last) keg of 4759 here (from a feed store!).
Step two - Buffalo Arms custom expander
Step three - ... ?  (load and shoot some)
Step four - learn how to pour my own boolits

I love "hanging out" with enablers on these forums who encourage me to get more equipment and shoot more!  Smiley

Thanks for the help.

OVW
  
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Re: Custom expanders
Reply #14 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 8:40am
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"minute of gong"

Got to wondering about that.  What exactly is minute of gong?  Lets say ten shot group size at 200 yards/meters?

        Joe.  Huh
  

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