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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused (Read 11032 times)
IOwnDoubles
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Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Jan 23rd, 2014 at 5:00pm
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Wink Okay I got a lot of nice suggestions for what to do with my cadet martini... but apparently everyone does not agree what is safe and what is not.
Typical conversions where 32-20 (which doesn't work well because of bullet diameter) or 32 Winch special (which may be kicks a bit too much.)
IF these are the old standbys per Frank DeHass, how come a 7-30 slaters is too much for a cadet?

How aout a 23-25? both are virally the same as a 32 winchester special?

How about the .219 zipper, the diameter is the same (its parent is the 30-30).  This one is used a lot to.  I almost bought one are the show from the same guy I bought this one from.

222 Rimmed is half way between the to, similar to the .357 mag/max.

I was leaning to the 357 max figured I could use mag brass and seat the bullets out until I got some brass, but I really liked the 7-30 because brass is so available, until Nero corrected his post about using a full size action for 7-30.

Boy I am confused!  Cry

Also, who is a good source for re-barrel or re-bore?

Is the Martini steel worth re-boring?

Thanks for all the input  Wink

Jerry

Here is some data:
Cartridge      Blt Dia      Neck      Shoulder      Base      Rim      Rim T      Case L      OH L      Twist
.310 Cadet      0.324      0.320            0.353      0.405      0.035      1.12      1.72      
Commonly Recommended                                                      
32-30      0.312      0.326      0.338      0.353      0.405      0.058      1.32      1.59      20
32 Winchester Special      0.321      0.343      0.396      0.422      0.506      0.058      2.04      2.55      16
218 Bee      0.224      0.241      0.331      0.349      0.408      0.060      1.35      1.68      16
Less Common                                                      
25-35      0.257      0.280      0.355      0.420      0.500      0.059      2.04      2.53      8
219 Zipper      0.224      0.252      0.364      0.421      0.497      0.058      1.94      2.26      16
222 Rimmed      0.224      0.253      0.355      0.375      ?      ?      1.70      2.15      14
357 Magnum      0.357      0.379      n/a      0.379      0.440      0.055      1.29      0.51      16-18
357 maximum      0.357      0.375      n/a      0.375      0.433      0.055      1.59      1.97      14
                                                     
Warned against                                                      
7-30 Walters      0.284      0.306      0.399      0.422      0.506      0.058      2.04      2.52      9.5
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #1 - Jan 23rd, 2014 at 7:05pm
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I think the main issue regarding what head size to use, is the wall thickness that is left after the chamber is cut. If you use the basic 30/30 case head and the threads are cut to the very minimum depth, you will only have a .118 wall thickness left. 

I believe that they are trying to steer you away from the 7-30 because it runs 3000 psi's higher pressure than the 30/30, 32 Spec or 25/35.   

A lot of gunsmiths use a rule of thumb that the case head needs to be no more than 1/2 the thread diameter and that is what I also use.

I believe that, that is why CPA increased the thread dia. of the 44 1/2. At the 7/8" of the original Stevens, "The Rule" allows only a .438 case head.

Frank
  

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IOwnDoubles
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #2 - Jan 23rd, 2014 at 8:25pm
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Frank,
What you say makes sense, I imagine, the 32 special was not such a great Idea when conceived.  If I didn't already have two hornets, I know what I would do.  I wish the 357 maximum brass were more easily available. (for that matter, hornet brass isn't available now either)
Jerry
  
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MI-shooter
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #3 - Jan 23rd, 2014 at 8:32pm
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The length of Max brass can cause issues in chambering. Some who have done this needed to widen (not deepen) the groove in the breech block so the rim sits lower while loading giving the brass a straighter shot to the chamber. Still others have had to put a SLIGHT chamfer on the top of the chamber mouth to help insertion.
  
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IOwnDoubles
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #4 - Jan 23rd, 2014 at 8:51pm
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So does that mean, maybe just us a maximum reamer, use mag cases and set the bullet farther out is the best solution?
If I am using copper barnes bullets, they are going to be long for their wt anyway.

Jerry
  
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Goatwhiskers
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #5 - Jan 24th, 2014 at 10:20am
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Based on experience dating back to the 60's, anything based on a 30/30 case such as the Zipper is pretty much the limit due to case diameter.  Even then I wouldn't care to be one of those who try to push the upper limits.  The .44 Magnum is out, tho some have been built, you just don't have enough wall left to prevent swelling.  As regards the Max, it isn't the case length that is the problem, it's the bullet nose contour.  Mine doesn't like the RD359170 as it is a fat little sucker and I have to seat it at a certain depth to slide in.  The RD359190 has a longer tapered nose and can be seated further out close to the lands chambering easily.  I don't recommend any alterations to the block, YMMV.  Using Mag brass, boolit seated out, is workable, tho in my rifle accuracy went down.  I really didn't spend much time working with this tho.  I found I would have to use such as 4227 (ran out) or 2400 (low) and A1680 in the Max case with the above boolits gave me excellent accuracy so I stoppe there.  GW
  

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Nero
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #6 - Jan 24th, 2014 at 4:16pm
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I was going to go with a 357 Max on another of my Martini's but because no cases or dies were available I went with the 357 Mag and open sights on an eighteen inch barrel that came off a 9mm Mannlicher. A slugged bullet came out at exactly 357".
Wasn't happy with the open sights so put a Parker Hale peep sight on the rear and a higher and finer blade on the front end because I couldn't get enough elevation and with factory ammo (American Eagle 158 grain jacketed soft points) it will put them into a one inch group at a hundred metres off a rest. 
This one was also a 22 R/F target rifle and has a real nice trigger let off.
These little martini's are fantastic. Quality and one small screw taken out and the whole works will drop out in your hand. Not many rifles you can say that about.
Biased? who me.
Regards.
 
« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2014 at 6:26pm by Nero »  
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #7 - Jan 24th, 2014 at 9:54pm
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My brother had a Cadet Martini built up in .218 Ackley improved Bee.  C.C. Johnson did the work.  He's still got the rifle, it shoots great.  He has taken deer with it, but mostly uses it target and varmint shooting.

jn
  
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boats
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #8 - Jan 25th, 2014 at 4:57am
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Cherrys has one for sale on the web in 256 Win Mag. Think that's a suitable caliber ?

Boats
  
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IOwnDoubles
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #9 - Jan 25th, 2014 at 10:28pm
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Nero,
Nice rifle
I think I am going to go with mag or max not sure.  Been talking to Bellm and he is really a max promoter.  I don't want to have to alter the block though.

Jerry
  
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IOwnDoubles
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #10 - Jan 25th, 2014 at 10:39pm
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I am thinking about a octogon barrel from green mountain and having Mike Bellm chamber it with 357 mag, long throat so I can seat the bullets out further.  Less hassel that dealing with max brass availability.

The octogon barrel should add a nice touch.

Jerry
  
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #11 - Jan 25th, 2014 at 10:43pm
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ok I would like to add my 2 cents worth. leave it as a 310 cadet... I have 2 and both are in the original cartridge and I really cant find a lot of fault in it. Reloading for it is a bit tricky what with the heel type bullet, but all in all not that bad. 
in 2001 myself and 2 buddies imported 14 rifles from down under. I have 2 of them and one I re-stocked because it was in pretty bad condition.. the other one I left as is as it really looks pretty good. I have toyed with the idea to re barrel it to 25-20 as I have a reamer and really like the cartridge. The one thing I will do for sure if I re barrel it is keep the stock and barrel so I could put it back the way it was made if I wanted to. Rcbs and cbe make bullet moulds might be others I don't know about but the rcbs bullet is pretty hard to beat. Now for the best part of all my grand kids flat love to shoot the cadet rifles especially the one I re stocked and cut the barrel shorter also added a red dot sight. It kills the armor plated sage rats we have here about as dead as anyother rifle I own. if you are bound and determined to convert consider the 218 bee and the 25-20. argie1891
  

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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #12 - Jan 25th, 2014 at 10:45pm
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If I was gonna go with a 357, I'd have it chambered for the max. Brass will not be unavailable forever.
  
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #13 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 7:57pm
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Here's to confusion.  I have, or have had martini cadet action rifles in all of the 30-30 based chamberings.  With the exception of one done in 30-30 Imp, all worked well.  My current favorite hunting rifle is one in 30-30. I shoot a load that Lyman published that is rated at 29000 psi.  I have also fed it factory ammo with no problems.

I've heard that a 32 Special kicks too much.  Mine does well with factory loads when I shoot it offhand.  Probably not comfortable from the bench. 

I have had cadets in 30 and 357 Herrett as well.  Pretty nice, although the 200 grain 357 does demand your attention.

For a small cartridge, I like my 5.6X50R and 256 Win Mag rifles.  

They are all great.

Ed
  
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muddy
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Re: Martini ? Forgive me but now I am really confused
Reply #14 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 12:35am
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Edbu, I'm currently doing a bunch of shooting w/my Cadet  32 Win. Spcl. w/various cast bullets. I have a Rapine 321155 (140 gr FB) RCBS 120 gr. heeled, a Lee 308 115 bored out and an old Cramer HP 30 carb on the way back from Erik Olean re bored to .322. Today I have the best groups yet (100yds/10 shots) w/ the Rapine and 7 gr Unique/CCI 350 primers/WW 30-30 cases. Most about 1" tall and 2" wide. w/others about 2-3" tall and 1.5 inches wide. Have been trying several different powder/primers but Unique's  the best so far. Loaded 50 more tonight and will shoot em'  tomorrow in 10 shot groups. BTW I mounted a 2.5X Weaver farmer style on it (see gunsmith forum) and so far everything is good. If you have any ideas/input on the Cadet 32 Spcl. (I'll keep posting about my groups) I would love to hear from you on this. GO HAWKS-Muddy
  
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