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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only (Read 9605 times)
Amanda
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Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:32pm
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Hello folks,
I am a Service Rifle & Pistol competitor who has only used black powder in my Colt revolvers. I just bought a NIB 1885 Winchester with the so-called Creedmoor sights and Badger barrel from around 2011. Wondered if I could get a few tips on the following items, since I have extensive reloading experience with smokeless, but none with black? I am looking for specific manufacturing names that will let me buy any particular device I may need. Thanks in advance for imparting your suggestions and wisdom!
1. I have a set of RCBS "Cowboy" dies, mainly because my wife bought me a Trapdoor for Christmas 5 years ago, and they came with it. Where do I get the powder compression device for these dies, or do I need another set of dies?
2. Name a quality bullet mould and a specific bullet for 200 to 600 yard shooting [Service Rifle Range availability].
3. Assuming I choose not to cast my own, who makes the proper hardness bullets? I plan on sticking with one bullet and one weight, preferably 405 to 525 grains in weight.
4. I do not intend to do Duplex loading. Do I need to enlarge my Flash-hole in Starline brass? If so, what tool do I need and who has it?
5. Taper Crimp/No Crimp/Roll Crimp? Which is best for accuracy?
6. How far out to seat the bullet in a repro 1885 Winny?
7. Is an over-powder wad absolutely necessary, and if so, what type and where to buy it?
  
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.22-5-40
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #1 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:40pm
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Welcome Amanda!  I have just gotten back to black last couple of years.  I am working with an original .40-70 Mid-Range rolling block.  I have been using Swiss 1 /12..no compression of powder..other than via. home-made 36" brass drop-tube.  I use a 1/32" veg. fiber wad from Walters..cut my own..but you can buy pre-made from him.  I seated bullet so just made contact with leade..and adjusted powder charge so wad under bullet made firm contact with powder & bullet base.  Lube was SPG.  I wasn't expecting much from 1st time out..imagine my surprise when groups were sub 1" at 100yds!..no expert by long shot..but hope this helps.  Best of luck!
  
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John Boy
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:19pm
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Amanda, before you get started with the details, 3 items:
* Slug the barrel of the '85 HiWall.  For best obturation, the bullet should be 0.001 to 0.003 over groove diameter
* Read Inroduction to BPCR Loading ...  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
* Read The 8-Phase Casting Cycle (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
You failed to mention the caliber of the HiWall and am presuming it is a 45-70
#1. Track of the Wolf, buy the plug that is 001 to 002 under your bullet diameter for neck tension of the bullet and the Lee Neck Expander die ...
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
#2. Mold = Accurate ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) Specify the mold for 1:20 alloy bullets 
#2.a. The Bullet - The Postell known as the 457132.  Accuracte will make your based on the diameter you need
#3. Store bought bullets:
Sage Outfitters ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
#4. Leave the Starline flash hole AS IS
#5. After you expand the case mouth ONLY crimp to remove the bell
#6. So the nose of the bullet touches the leading bore cut after the leade
#7. A wad is a must to protect the base of the bullet.  You have choices: punch your own cardboard from cereal boxes or LDPE or 1/8 hard felt wads or buy 45 caliber fiber wads ... 
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
You may want to look around on the Buffalo Arms website - they have everything needed for BPCR shooting 
You also will also need a deburring tool to chamfer the case mouth ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

  
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gunlaker
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #3 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:32pm
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Amanda wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:32pm:
Hello folks,
I am a Service Rifle & Pistol competitor who has only used black powder in my Colt revolvers. I just bought a NIB 1885 Winchester with the so-called Creedmoor sights and Badger barrel from around 2011. Wondered if I could get a few tips on the following items, since I have extensive reloading experience with smokeless, but none with black? I am looking for specific manufacturing names that will let me buy any particular device I may need. Thanks in advance for imparting your suggestions and wisdom!
1. I have a set of RCBS "Cowboy" dies, mainly because my wife bought me a Trapdoor for Christmas 5 years ago, and they came with it. Where do I get the powder compression device for these dies, or do I need another set of dies?
2. Name a quality bullet mould and a specific bullet for 200 to 600 yard shooting [Service Rifle Range availability].
3. Assuming I choose not to cast my own, who makes the proper hardness bullets? I plan on sticking with one bullet and one weight, preferably 405 to 525 grains in weight.
4. I do not intend to do Duplex loading. Do I need to enlarge my Flash-hole in Starline brass? If so, what tool do I need and who has it?
5. Taper Crimp/No Crimp/Roll Crimp? Which is best for accuracy?
6. How far out to seat the bullet in a repro 1885 Winny?
7. Is an over-powder wad absolutely necessary, and if so, what type and where to buy it?


1.  Those are nice dies. I use them.  Buffalo Arms sells compression plugs that will fit into your expander die body.
2.  Mine shoots very accurately with the Saeco #745 bullet in 25:1 or the Buffalo Arms 535gr money bullet in 20:1.
3. I cast my own so I can't really help there.  Buffalo Arms would be a good start probably.
4.  Starline brass is good.  Leave the flash holes alone.
5. No crimp.  My loads with the Saeco bullet use 0.002" neck tension whereas my money bullet loads are slip fit.  Either will work.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #4 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:34pm
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6.  I haven't played with that much in my Browning rifle, but it seems happy just touching the lands for both bullets.
7.  I always use wads.  You can buy them for about $20 per thousand.

The real key to getting these rifles to shoot is quality trigger time.  Pick a decent load and use it for a while until you really get a handle on your shooting technique.  When I first got into shooting black powder cartridge rifles maybe 6 or 7 years ago I fell into the trap of fooling with loads and bullet styles for a long time.  I eventually realized that a lot of the apparent differences I was seeing between loads was just due to inconsistencies in grip, trigger control, recoil management and ignoring natural point of aim.

Have fun with the rifle.

Chris.
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2014 at 4:39pm by gunlaker »  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #5 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 5:40pm
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Circle Fly Wads:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Many of the reloading suppliers provide these wads; however I ussually get them directly from Circle Fly:


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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #6 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 7:38pm
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I have shot a lot of BP in a 45-70 and all of the above information is very good. The only thing that I would add is that when loading my ammunition I would place a wax paper wad between the over powder wad and the bullet. Since I cast my own bullets there is an excellent chance that the bases are not absolutely perfect nor are they absolutely clean. The wax paper will keep the over powder wad from sticking to the base of the bullet and if the wax paper does stick there is not enough mas to it to cause any damage. 
Sam
  
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #7 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 8:38pm
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The lyman 457125 roundnose is plain vanilla, not as fancy and probably not as good as the glitzier shapes.

But it works, it works for black and its given me my best groups for smokeless using reloader 7.  I've bought 3-4 moulds before I picked the 457125 up and it worked the first try.
  
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #8 - Jan 9th, 2014 at 8:55pm
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"The real key to getting these rifles to shoot is quality trigger time.  Pick a decent load and use it for a while until you really get a handle on your shooting technique.  When I first got into shooting black powder cartridge rifles maybe 6 or 7 years ago I fell into the trap of fooling with loads and bullet styles for a long time.  I eventually realized that a lot of the apparent differences I was seeing between loads was just due to inconsistencies in grip, trigger control, recoil management and ignoring natural point of aim.

Have fun with the rifle."


Excellent advice Chris.  Remember these rifles do not really start to shine until enough time has been spent seasoning a barrel and a 'shooter'.  I'd say a thousand rounds plus.   Wink

Cary
  
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Amanda
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 3:11am
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CaryT-
1,000 rounds+ from now, assuming the .45-70 kicks as much as many say it does, I'll know two things; how well I shoot the rifle, and if I have any fillings left in my teeth. Assuming you guys are talking about running a cleaning rod with wet patch followed by dry patch after every few rounds downrange, may take awhile to "season" me and the barrel. It will at least be interesting. My Colt 1851 was easy compared to the rifle stuff, and I lost interest when all it really ended up being was a novelty that everyone at the range wanted to try, then spending hours cleaning and keeping the rust devils away. The Colt will certainly make you appreciate the dead old guys, and the Peacemaker Grin. Looks like the rifle will keep me much more challenged than the pistol, so I am looking forward to it. Thanks for the advice to all who responded.
Amanda
  
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boats
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #10 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:20am
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It's really pretty simple.

Get a bullet that fits. Fill the case with BP, keep the bore clean shot to shot. Everything else is refinement. You want to avoid all the small changes at once make them one at a time.

Bullet fit is way more important than anything else.

Boats

  
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #11 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:54am
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Just a couple of thoughts, I don't think Boats really meant to fill the case up to the top with black powder because if you do and then seat a bullet it will have a lot of compression on the powder column. In my 45/70 I have found that a charge of somewhere between 65 and 68 grains of 2f gives good accuracy without really heavy recoil.
If recoil is unpleasant buy a shoulder guard from Buffalo Arms and recoil will be a non issue. As for bullet design, what works in one rifle may not work in another. Think of the 45/70 as a big .22 rim fire, .22s are usually ammo fussy, so are 45/70 rifles.
Try as many bullet styles that you can by borrowing ( scrounging ) bullets, when you find one that the rifle likes, then buy the mould. If you do this the other way round you will end up with an expensive mould collection. Everybody has one. Read as much as you can about reloading black powder rifle ammo, SPG have a small book that tells you most of which you need to know for a start.
Enjoy the ride.
Mike.
  
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #12 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 2:13pm
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Sorry bout that I did mean fill the case to the bullets base.   Agree purchased bullets first save the mold for later.  Black is not as sensitive to bore size. Bumps up on ignition .457 .458 .459 is about the range barrel dependent. If buying .457 will work in most barrels, due to the bump up.  Copy of the US 405 Carbine bullet you won't go wrong.

Wiping every few shots is not going to produce results. Make your mind up early on wipe every shot or blow tube every shot wipe every relay. I wipe every shot. Some like the blow tube.

SPGs book is a very good start.

Boats
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #13 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 6:04pm
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boats wrote on Jan 11th, 2014 at 7:20am:
It's really pretty simple.

Get a bullet that fits. Fill the case with BP, keep the bore clean shot to shot. Everything else is refinement. You want to avoid all the small changes at once make them one at a time.

Bullet fit is way more important than anything else.

Boats



I agree.  The Saeco #745 was recommended to me by a few people for use in the Miroku built Browning/Winchester 1885's which I think is what the original poster has.  It's a cheap mould to buy, and works very well.  It' also common enough that someone must sell bullets cast with it somewhere.

Chris.
  
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CanoeRoller
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Re: Newbie Reloading Question .45-70 BP Only
Reply #14 - Jan 11th, 2014 at 6:41pm
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You are off to a good start.  Try not to over think everything though.  For every shooter who tells you they do things a certain way, there is another who does not.

There are some basics though, and just what those basics are will depend on what your goals are.   
Get a couple of good black powder primers, and study them to get more information about the different basics out there.


I weigh each bullet, and group them to within 1 grain.   I use a wad (for target accuracy you do need a wad over the powder.)  I weigh each powder charge, and use a drop tube. For most of the powders I have used, I compress less than 1/16 further before I place my bullet.  I am very careful in my use of BP lube, which I make for myself.  I am very fussy about my bp cleaner, also home made.

I can give you many more details about how I load, but it is a bit pointless, as I may be quite accurate or not able to hit a barn, and still think my loads are good.

If you are planning to shoot long range, you will most likely want to use paper patch rounds, and wipe between shots.  If you only shoot silhouettes, you will probably prefer a blow tube, and use grease groove bullets.

The one thing you ought to be careful of are all the folks who try to imply that their way is the best and only way.  That is a sure sign they are still learning.
  
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