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John Boy
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Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:16am
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* Smokeless powders have a Burn Rate Table
* Smokeless powders have detailed composition of ingredients in Propellent Profiles
There is no primer information by brand & type to identify:
* Primer cup tensile strength
* For 100% sensitivity ...
--- No Ball Drop Weight (grs)
--- No Ball Drop Height (mm)
* Briance
Except for brand MSDS sheets with general primer charge ingredients, this information is not in firearm's magazines or composite published information by vendor & primer type as there is for smokeless powders
  
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deadwooddick
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:33am
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Quote:

* Briance [sic]


Likely a typo… brisance  Wink

A sand crush test is commonly employed to determine the relative brisance in comparison to TNT. No single test is capable of directly comparing the explosive properties of two or more compounds;… True values for comparison will require field experiments.

  
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Chickenthief
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #2 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 8:27pm
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Some sort of info:

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A little more from a Swedish book i have on powder:

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The results are from igniting a priner onto a 1cc volume and measuring the pressure.
Temp
+20degC~68degF
+52degC~126degF
-54degC~-64degF

Pressure
1Mpa~145psi

It is not much but at least it is scientific.

The book also lists the amount of "powder" in RWS primers:
SP = 20mg
SPM = 23mg
LP = 32mg
SR = 24mg
LR = 32mg
LRM = 38mg
Shotgun = 60mg
50BMG = 115mg

Weight
10mg~0.154grain
  
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Chickenthief
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #3 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 8:32pm
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And some more links:

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This at least looks like a proper test but with a limited sample rate!
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #4 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 8:42pm
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Excellent articles, thank you.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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John Boy
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 7:07pm
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Here's what started me on the question about primers:
In my reference library is The Poor Man's Primer Manual by George B. Dmitrieff.  And on page I-10 are the 'Typical Commercial Specifications' for Boxer Small Arms Cartridge.  Listed on the page is Sensitivity data for LR - LP - SR and SP denoting Drop ball weight -grams and Ball drop height - mm ... listed on the following page image
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I sent an email to Federal for their primer measurements and the answer was ... "This is propriety information"

Germán A. Salazar in another one of his articles said that primers have to be it Hard & Fast.  Would be a good reference to know for commercial primers - how hard and how fast especially because the tensile strength of all pistol and rifle are not the same that I tested...
Test Procedure:  Using a Lee Hardness Tester that measures Brinell hardness, placed a new primer on a piece of steel.  Held the indent ball on the primer for 30 seconds.  Measurement is the diameter of the indent, smaller numbers indication harder brass
Additions = * 
Pistol Primers 
0.32 – CCI 300 LP
0.38 – Federal GM150 Match LP
0.40 – Federal 155 LP Magnum
0.40 – Winchester WLP  
0.42 – Federal  150 LP
0.42 -  Federal  100 SP 
*0.42 – Remington 1 ½ SP
0.44 – CCI 400 SP  
0.48 – Remington 2 ½ LP
*0.48 – CCI LP Lot 0264

Rifle Primers 
*0.24 – Herters 120 LR
0.26 – CCI BR-2 LR
0.28 – CCI 200 LR
*0.30 – Rem UMC Nickeled High Pressure LR
0.32 – Federal 215 LR Magnum
0.34 – Remington 9 ½ LR
*0.36 – Western 8 ½ LR
*0.38 - Rem 7 ½ Bench Rest
*0.38 – Alcan LR Magnum
*0.40 – Federal  210 LR
*0.40 – Winchester 115 Staynless LR 

* 0.30 - Dynamit AG cal 6.34
* 0.32 - Dynamit AG cal 4.5

Note:  Rifle primers are harder than handgun primers!
  
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Chickenthief
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:10am
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Found this on material thickness:

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And some more:

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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:21am by Chickenthief »  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 6:38am
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what are the criteria we look for?

Consistency of Ignition seems primary to me--Do they go off the same way every time?   I suppose that from the mfg this involves the hardness of the cup material and its thickness, and the amount and make up of the priming chemicals inside it. 
  Of course from our side we have to consider how well the primer is consistently seated and how consistent the firing pin strike is when it hits the primer cup.

Questions---Do primers go off due to the crush or is it the impact?  I suppose slowly tightening on in a bench vise might answer that.
   Why do some primers work better with some specific powders than others?  i.e.  magnum primers vrs standard primers.
My understanding is that the diff between pistol and rifle primers is pretty much a matter of size (height) and cup hardness. 

It seems to me that when we put the ignition of our cartridges under the magnifying glass there are a whole lot of variables in those little igniters we take pretty much for granted.

And then there are the rimfires  .  .  .  .  . Grin
  

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John Boy
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #8 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 3:18pm
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Quote:
Do primers go off due to the crush or is it the impact?  I suppose slowly tightening on in a bench vise might answer that.
The anvil crushes into the explosive lead styphnate
   Why do some primers work better with some specific powders than others?  i.e.  magnum primers vrs standard primers.
Magnum primers have more primer powder and some manufacturers include glass or aluminum for a greater brisance
My understanding is that the diff between pistol and rifle primers is pretty much a matter of size (height) and cup hardness.
Yes
  
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John Boy
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Re: Why is Published Info Not Available for Primer?
Reply #9 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 3:24pm
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Chickenthief - thanks for the links.  Have primer dimensions in references and will add the one on Berdans - though I don't shoot any brass with them for primers

Responses from Federal & CCI have been received - both "proprietary information"
Only alternative is to find a public DOD small arms ML-Spec to see if the primer information is in it
  
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