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Over Powder wad for Black?
Jan 4th, 2014 at 10:40pm
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The recent post on over powder wads for smokeless got me to thinking.. I had planned on trying out breach seating in my Ballard No. 3 .25-25 with black, but things didn't pan out..I have wad cutter for cutting various wad material, including veg. fibre, but was wondering if a 1/32" to 1/16" beeswax sheet pressed over case-mouth would work?
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #1 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 7:41am
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I would never use a wad that has a chance of sticking to the bullet and affecting it's aerodynamics.

I believe a .060 vegetable wad works well since it's stiffness  wipes out the barrel fouling as well. Scrapes barrel as it passes down the barrel in addition to protecting the base of the lead bullet from the explosive forces.
  
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #2 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:12am
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I use a .030 veggie wad in both 32/40  and 38/55 with BP and breech seating. You will find that compression will really make a difference in your group sizes. Experiment until you find the correct pressure, your groups will let you know when you have the correct amount.
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #3 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:13am
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I use wads only to hold the powder in the case. My best accuracy is without a wad, BP and smokeless.  Never use a wad that will stick to the base of the bullet.  Beeswax may work. The late Doug Frazier used hard wax wads in his BP loads to stop leading in hot weather. Doug was the man to beat for many years here in the PNW. 

     Joe.
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #4 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:37am
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When I was first exposed to ASSRA shooting in the mid 70's a fair number of the shooters were using wax wads to seal the case mouth.
  I rather vaguely recall that they were buying sheets of a dental wax. I think there were a couple dentists who were very active shooters; which may have affected the choice of material.  My recollection is that was sold in small boxes.  the sheets were maybe 1/16 or 3/32 thick and maybe 2 or 3 inches square.  The wax did not feel sticky like raw beeswax.

At one point a special nozzle with a slit in it was used with the Pope style lube pumps to extrude a ribbon of lube that I believe was used at the case mouth.  This is on the assumption that an extruded lube ribbon would have been too soft and frangible to poke down as an overpowder wad.

I'm not real sure how much wax or lube based overpowder or case mouth wads would impact "sticking to the bullet base"  considering the heat and pressure of the powder conflagration.   I'd thing they would be pretty well vaporized and consumed depending on the burn pattern of the charge.

there is so much that goes on dynamically inside that case in such a very very small instant of time that its hard for me to understand.  Seems to be more of an arcane art than science.

There have been a number of threads over the years on the use of wads that a search will provide hours of entertaining  if confusing reading.

My observation of the Etna Green range shooters is that the fine grained very light frangible "wet" floral foam is by far the currently most common used for case mouth sealer wads.

Modern BPCR style shooting has developed its own pattern and methods for wad usage.

Remember too that Civil War Minie' bullets were reputed to have had their base cavities filled with lube of some sort, though I have some reservations about their practicality in hot weather
  

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bohemianway
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #5 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 11:08am
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Just a material question: In the 80's I was using a .040" polyethylene wad that really brought my BP 38-55 fixed loads alive. Is PE an approved material for ISSA ASSRA etc.? We used to get 4' x 8' sheets.
  
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #6 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 11:48am
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It's OK with ASSRA rules.
It has damaged barrels in the past, although I don't remember what the damage was.
  

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #7 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:53pm
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Agree with Jeff's comments and not worth the risk.
  

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #8 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 1:34pm
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we had a couple guys who ruined barrels using the wrong poly material. it seemed to melt and weld itself to the bore like  copper fouling and NOTHING seemed to remove it.  one situation was with a brand new expensive custom job---first outing with it.  he just had to pack it up and go home.  we talked about warming the barrel, corking one end, filling it with MEK as a solvent  sealing the other end tightly and letting it soak for a few days.    but we never saw that gun again.  haven't seen much of the shooter either.
  there was much discussion about it at that time,  as I recall there was a high density and a low density,  there right one worked well the other one was poison.   Guys were cutting it out of recycled plastic milk bottles---if they were the right kind.
  I shied off plastic wads---PERIOD; and used cork sheeting for my over-powder wads in 5477/.45-70 loads.
  

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #9 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 4:50pm
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I have used and still use LDPE wads with BP and smokeless since 1988 and never had a problem, ever.

I still hold our club BP records using it. I got the idea from our CBA record holders in Grant Pass in that time period. They were shooting much higher pressures and velocitys. 

Niether of us ever found any melted wads. With BP the wads were mearly peined.

My wads have always been 1/16 LDPE. I've heard of people using milk jug material and other stuff but, I can assure you that 1/16 LDPE, cut over groove diameter, won't melt.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jan 5th, 2014 at 7:19pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #10 - Jan 5th, 2014 at 7:12pm
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I have recovered quite a few LDPE wads from my black powder target rifles and certainly non of them have ever appeared to show melting.  However I buy them from Buffalo Arms for $20 per thousand rather than experimenting with random plastics which may be prone to problems.

With breech seating black powder I've been using 0.030" veg fiber wads but I've been thinking of using something a bit lighter.

  In one of my rifles I breech seat a bore diameter paper patched bullet.  In that rifle I use a 0.030" veg wad on the powder, and breech seat the bullet with an additional wad made of 0.060" LDPE.  Accuracy is very good with that technique.

Chris.
  
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #11 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 7:11am
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I use the Veg Fiber wads when breech seating Black Powder too. It's needed to keep the powder from spilling when loading.  Buy them from Walters Wads. He will send a pack of different sizes and thickness to test.

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #12 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 8:36am
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I use low density Polyethylene wads over duplex loads. Shot thousands through my 40-65s. No damage, no melting. 

      Joe.
  

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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #13 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:27am
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Quote:
but was wondering if a 1/32" to 1/16" beeswax sheet pressed over case-mouth would work?
If Harry Pope used felt wads, might want to consider using them too!
1/16" hard felt for breech seated rounds ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
I use 1/16" and 1/8" hard felt for my BPCR breech & fixed cartridge reloads - it is my Go To material
  
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Re: Over Powder wad for Black?
Reply #14 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:36am
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I have a recollection of someone using lube saturated felt. probably not a good idea in real hot weather unless you keep your preloaded fixed ammo in a cooler until immediately prior to use
  

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