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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Design of reduced capacity cases. (Read 17399 times)
Cat_Whisperer
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Design of reduced capacity cases.
Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:20am
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Just postulating here.
I have a couple of rifles that might be candidates - a B78 in 30-06 and a R#1 in 375H&H.

If I were to fire-form a number of cases (for either or both) that would make the cases right-much good fitting to the chamber.

The 'tin' I use is lead-free solder scrap/dross rendered and cleaned.  It MEASURES as-cast 42-43 on Rockwell C; which is the same as measuring the hardness of a jacketed bullet.

I could then fill each of the cases with the molten tin.  Drill the flash-hole (about 0.160") up into the middle of the case.  Then drill a powder cavity down from the neck at some reduced diameter and use and end mill to counter drill/bore the neck down to exactly where I want to seat the bullet.

That would give me a smaller powder capacity AND a precise depth of seating for a particular bullet.

Each case could be 'cammed' into battery, seating the bullet to ( some depth into rifling ).

Hmmmmm.

  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #1 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:44am
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what is the melting point of tin?  how hot does your powder burn? Just speculating, but I suspect that the "jet" of burning pressurized of powder gasses would do a lot of tin erosion down into the primer flash channel and cause blockage and weird stuff in short order.

Just have RMC make a few out of brass,  I have a bunch of 220 Swifts kind of made that way. solid brass with a .22? hole from case mouth to small rifle primer pocket flash hole.
If I was to do a larger bore cartridge I'd design a seating depth shoulder. Thinking seriously about trying some 45-70's that way as an experiment.  Kind of like an internal stop ring for straight or tapered bullets.  start with it shallow and mill it deeper if needed.
My only mental reservation is how well the thick/thin wall transitions and the brass RMC uses would work in the long run
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #2 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:57am
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DWS - good point on the possibility of tin erosion.  I don't know, but will find out - I'm betting (at least the labor of making a few) that it won't be significant.  (Large mass, short duration of flame)

The idea of the powder chamber being narrower and longer (down to the primer hole) is an option.

From the research done in the 1400's to 1700's with hand gonnes, the powder chambers that are bigger in diameter and shorter give lower pressure peaks that long and narrow.  (Black powder of course.)

But the internal shoulder intrigues me.   

.405 Win and .458WM are two other options - might do the .405 first as I have the most brass for it.
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #3 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 12:46pm
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me too,   I wonder how long a "flash tube" you can have and have it function reliably.

Re: pressure of short wide powder charge vrs tall narrow ones.    seems like that is the basis for a lot of the "short magnums" that are/were the rage.  I think that part of the theory is that you get a wider ignition/flame base that burns the length of the charge more quickly rather than a taller narrower longer burn. 
Yet, I have flintlocks that have patent breeches that have a significantly less-than-bore sized powder or at least ignition chambers, then there are the Notorious Coehorn mortars and similar mortar designs---but then BP ignites burns a lt diff. from smokeless.  Maybe doing too much apple to oranges thinking here.
  I wonder about the diff in bore size bullet base areas and how that factors.   For example take a .308 round with a 180 gr bullet and a .260 rem target round also w a 180 gr bullet and test them with the same powder charge.  I'd think the longer narrower bullet, if nothing else would have more surface-drag/friction in the bore--slowing the bullet down and boosting in-barrel pressure.
I'm thinking something like a .42 or .40 dia powder chamber dia under a 45 cal bullet,  maybe .36/.38 under a 40 etc.

hopefully someone who understands this stuff a lot better than me will chime in
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #4 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:11pm
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Cat_Whisperer wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:20am:


It MEASURES as-cast 42-43 on Rockwell C; which is the same as measuring the hardness of a jacketed bullet.



Rc42-43 for bullet jackets? Are you sure of those numbers? That's quite a bit harder than barrel steels run. 

Ed
  
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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #5 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:13pm
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MI-shooter wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:11pm:
Cat_Whisperer wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 10:20am:


It MEASURES as-cast 42-43 on Rockwell C; which is the same as measuring the hardness of a jacketed bullet.



Rc42-43 for bullet jackets? Are you sure of those numbers? That's quite a bit harder than barrel steels run. 

Ed


YES, I'm sure of the NUMBERS.  It SHOULD have been R42-43 on the B scale.  My bad; thanks!
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #6 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:15pm
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Some computer spreadsheet analysis suggests that smaller cases do not produce large changes in accuracy. n fact, the difference in accuracy between smaller and larger cases MAY be mostly imaginary. I have the article and analysis, posted it here in the past. I'm happy to forward it.
  
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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #7 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:51pm
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Thanks, but this is an effort to reduce the volume to a reasonable PB cast bullet amount of powder in a HUGE case.  38-55 type of volume compared to 375 H&H volume - perhaps half.  The advantages include - one, the chances of double charging are greatly reduced; two - the ignition is better (less hang fires); three - the consistency of burn due to a closer to say 80% fill from 20% fill; and four the inner-shelf providing a controlled position of the bullet.
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #8 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 3:53pm
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DWS - me thinks that a 0.162 diameter flash channel would be squirrely when it comes to de-priming.
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #9 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 4:40pm
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If you want to shoot a great big case with a little powder, put in the powder and then a filler, like COW. Nobody thinks COW etc causes rings, and accuracy with COW etc seems fine. Seems simple to me.
  
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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #10 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 5:02pm
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yeah, there is that Shocked   hydraulic pressure de-primer anyone.

On second thought if the depriming pin's shaft was a nice but not tight slip fit to the "tube" it might work OK.  might even be less wobbly than some of the ones we commonly use.
 
Then I wonder about fine grain powders filling the tube.

Ain't it fun,  we'll kick it around for a while then some spoil-sport will point out that Pope or Mann or one of them guys hoed this over thoroughly a hundred years ago when "everlasting "cases were common. Roll Eyes

  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #11 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 5:05pm
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i was thinking a disc of nitrated paper or Zig-Zag to cover the 'flash tube" before adding the powder.  I think that is/was done in BP when they put a dab of 4F or even finer Null-B as an igniter in a duplex load
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #12 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:56pm
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joeb33050 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 4:40pm:
If you want to shoot a great big case with a little powder, put in the powder and then a filler, like COW. Nobody thinks COW etc causes rings, and accuracy with COW etc seems fine. Seems simple to me.


Too expensive for me.  Grits, in my price range.
BUT, I don't want to add a filler.
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #13 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 6:59pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 5:02pm:
yeah, there is that Shocked   hydraulic pressure de-primer anyone.

On second thought if the depriming pin's shaft was a nice but not tight slip fit to the "tube" it might work OK.  might even be less wobbly than some of the ones we commonly use.
 
Then I wonder about fine grain powders filling the tube.

Ain't it fun,  we'll kick it around for a while then some spoil-sport will point out that Pope or Mann or one of them guys hoed this over thoroughly a hundred years ago when "everlasting "cases were common. Roll Eyes



I would love to read someone else's research on having done something similar.   

Everlasting cases are ok, but expensive.  I'm looking for a low-tech low-cost alternative.

Annealing the cases would be out of the question, but might not need to do so.
  

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Re: Design of reduced capacity cases.
Reply #14 - Jan 1st, 2014 at 7:00pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 5:05pm:
i was thinking a disc of nitrated paper or Zig-Zag to cover the 'flash tube" before adding the powder.  I think that is/was done in BP when they put a dab of 4F or even finer Null-B as an igniter in a duplex load


A long flash-tube would have the advantage/dis-advantage of mitigating the brisance of the primer just because of the distance involved.

  

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