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"Wind" (Read 22373 times)
Cat_Whisperer
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #30 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 8:36am
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joeb33050 wrote
on Jan 1
st
, 2014 at 6:33am:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage.
...
(by invitation per post #27 - my observations as a reader)
Joe I think the term Wind is a poor choice. A better term would have been a variable as "X".
That would preclude the confusion between wind and Wind
.
Good teaching (communication) goes from
the known into the unknown
.
Begin by explaining the difficulty in sorting out the myriad of variables - when standing at the line shooting at the 200 yard target, what affects where the bullet is going to hit? (List a few here - to bring the reader's mind to considering that there are more than can be listed, let alone measured.)
Perhaps a summary statement in the simple terms of the beginner. Use several short sentences that are clear statements of observable facts -
that draw the reader to the same questions that you are trying to address.
The opening statement should give define what you're talking about, where you're headed. It needs to be in the simple terms of the reader; otherwise it creates confusion.
Cat Whisperer (trk)
Chief of Smoke
Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works
Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army
assra #9885
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40_Rod
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #31 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 9:15am
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I'm not following Joe down the rabbit-hole on this one. I’ll simply let my shooting speak for me. My proof is on the paper.
40 Rod
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joeb33050
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #32 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 9:20am
Print Post
Cat_Whisperer wrote
on Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 8:36am:
joeb33050 wrote
on Jan 1
st
, 2014 at 6:33am:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage.
...
(by invitation per post #27 - my observations as a reader)
Joe I think the term Wind is a poor choice. A better term would have been a variable as "X".
That would preclude the confusion between wind and Wind
.
Good teaching (communication) goes from
the known into the unknown
.
Begin by explaining the difficulty in sorting out the myriad of variables - when standing at the line shooting at the 200 yard target, what affects where the bullet is going to hit? (List a few here - to bring the reader's mind to considering that there are more than can be listed, let alone measured.)
Perhaps a summary statement in the simple terms of the beginner. Use several short sentences that are clear statements of observable facts -
that draw the reader to the same questions that you are trying to address.
The opening statement should give define what you're talking about, where you're headed. It needs to be in the simple terms of the reader; otherwise it creates confusion.
Here;'s what I'd like explained. You wrote:
"The statements he's made are so blatantly out-to-lunch that, yes, I knew I'd be re-stating the obvious."
Please list/explain. In simple terms.
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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th
, 2004
Re: "Wind"
Reply #33 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 10:05am
Print Post
"
My ability to analyze shooting data and draw conclusions has little to do with shooting
"
I think most of agree that it seems that way to us as well.
Joe I am convinced that your intentions are good. We just are failing to understand the correlations and conclusions you come to.
The gap between real-on-the-range-experience/results and your statistical/theoretical approach appears to be too great and yet again the frustration on both sides at the communication failure is becoming all too visible
sacred cows make the best burger
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joeb33050
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #34 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 12:14pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote
on Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 10:05am:
"
My ability to analyze shooting data and draw conclusions has little to do with shooting
"
I think most of agree that it seems that way to us as well.
Joe I am convinced that your intentions are good. We just are failing to understand the correlations and conclusions you come to.
The gap between real-on-the-range-experience/results and your statistical/theoretical approach appears to be too great and yet again the frustration on both sides at the communication failure is becoming all too visible
See if this is any clearer.
Of all the variables that affect accuracy, wind drift is way down the list. "Wind" is down there also.
The numbers say so, and also say that group size/match ranking is NOT connected to ability to dope the wind.
The conclusion is that with a finite budget to expend on improving accuracy, there are more fruitful expenditures than wind doping. And, Warren, 57 years ago and shooting far smaller groups than cast bullet shooters shoot today, agrees.
Do you understand this?
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Cat_Whisperer
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No 1, 9.3x74R
Posts: 3874
Location: Mountains of Virginia
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #35 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 12:14pm
Print Post
joeb33050 wrote
on Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 9:20am:
Cat_Whisperer wrote
on Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 8:36am:
joeb33050 wrote
on Jan 1
st
, 2014 at 6:33am:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage.
...
(by invitation per post #27 - my observations as a reader)
Joe I think the term Wind is a poor choice. A better term would have been a variable as "X".
That would preclude the confusion between wind and Wind
.
Good teaching (communication) goes from
the known into the unknown
.
Begin by explaining the difficulty in sorting out the myriad of variables - when standing at the line shooting at the 200 yard target, what affects where the bullet is going to hit? (List a few here - to bring the reader's mind to considering that there are more than can be listed, let alone measured.)
Perhaps a summary statement in the simple terms of the beginner. Use several short sentences that are clear statements of observable facts -
that draw the reader to the same questions that you are trying to address.
The opening statement should give define what you're talking about, where you're headed. It needs to be in the simple terms of the reader; otherwise it creates confusion.
Here;'s what I'd like explained. You wrote:
"The statements he's made are so blatantly out-to-lunch that, yes, I knew I'd be re-stating the obvious."
Please list/explain. In simple terms.
I picked the first one, did as requested.
End of conversation, out.
Cat Whisperer (trk)
Chief of Smoke
Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works
Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army
assra #9885
WWW
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BP
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #36 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 3:42pm
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Original opening statement:
Quote:
"Wind" is whatever factors cause 200 yard groups to be greater than twice 100 yard groups, and includes wind drift and mirage.
Subsequent statement:
Quote:
My ability to analyze shooting data and draw conclusions has little to do with shooting.
Why would a shooter consider the analysis relevant or valid, and worth viewing?
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #37 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 4:09pm
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Joe B Im going to take a wild guess, that you are a successful Politician
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J.Francis
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th
, 2011
Re: "Wind"
Reply #38 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 4:47pm
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Another factor to consider is the type of benchrest shooting Warren Page did as opposed to the type of shooting at ASSRA matches. There's a huge differance in wind drift at 100 yards between a 22 caliber bullet at 3400 fps and a 32 caliber bullet at 1400 fps.I mostly shoot smallbore and matches are won and lost by a competitors ability to pick up on subtle wind changes. I totally agree with Page when he says to pay more attention to mirage - I've seen wind flags pointing in one direction and mirage going in the opposite direction.I've also shot High Power matches in Puerto Rico where wind changes at 600 yards won't just take you out of the ten ring, they'll take you off your target frame. Wind matters; in fact, wind rules.
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Cat_Whisperer
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #39 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 5:04pm
Print Post
Quote:
Joe B Im going to take a wild guess, that you are a successful Politician
Not on this board.
Cat Whisperer (trk)
Chief of Smoke
Pulaski Coehorn Works and Skunk Works
Drafted May 1970, Retired Maj. U.S.Army
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boats
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rd
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #40 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 6:23pm
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If you put atmospheric conditions together they form perhaps the most significant variable in match shooting. One day it's temp next its mirage next light. Wind is almost always present and the one you worry about most.
It may be JoeB confused Warren Pages comments. He did spend a lot of time on mirage in his book. Lot of detail on using it to read wind. 200 yards rare for sighting error caused by mirage causing off shots.
Boats
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JS47
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #41 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 11:19pm
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to quote the old movie sheriff, "what we have here is a failure to communicate"
Sorry to inject some reality into this conversation but it was Paul Newman as the convict in "Cool Hand Luke" who made the statement. Good movie.
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wcf3840
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th
, 2007
Re: "Wind"
Reply #42 -
Jan 2
nd
, 2014 at 11:26pm
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Both Paul Newman and the warden (played by Strother Martin) said, "what we got here is a failure to communicate."
GTalk
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joeb33050
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th
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #43 -
Jan 3
rd
, 2014 at 6:17am
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So, we're all in agreement here. Thanks for the many .meaningful contributions. Now to move on to the
BUT sometimes three or four features that are individually insignificant will collectively make a large difference; as in tuning a rifle
explanation. This may take a while. (So many errors, so little time.)
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westerner
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Re: "Wind"
Reply #44 -
Jan 3
rd
, 2014 at 7:40am
Print Post
One day while working on cars with my friend Jon Sjolander, Jon gave me a serious look and asked me to admit that if you hold the rifle on the target and squeeze the trigger, the bullets will go into the center of the target no matter what. Extended discussion ensued. Drove Jon to the range and handed him my 308 Sportco practice rifle.
As far as I know it was the first time Jon had fired a rifle. With a sling from the prone position, he put ten shots in a two inch circle in the center of the target at 100 yards. The wind was up as usual. I never argued with him again.
Go figure.
Joe.
A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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